Does light aimed outward contribute to the pull of space-time in black holes?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interaction of light and space-time in the context of black holes, specifically whether light aimed outward contributes to the gravitational pull of space-time and the implications of relativity in this scenario. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects of black holes, the nature of light, and the curvature of space-time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that black holes can pull photons in despite their speed, questioning if this implies that space-time can "travel" faster than light.
  • Others clarify that space-time does not "travel" in the conventional sense, suggesting that black holes create a region of curved space-time that affects the motion of objects.
  • There is a discussion about the relative speeds of light and massive bodies in the context of black holes, with some arguing that light directed outward behaves differently than light directed inward.
  • One participant notes that while light aimed outward appears to move at the speed of light, it is affected by the geometry of the black hole's interior, which complicates the understanding of its motion relative to massive bodies.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between outward and inward directed light when discussing their respective speeds in relation to massive bodies falling into a black hole.
  • Some participants express frustration with the complexity of discussing relativity and the nuances involved in the conversation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of light in relation to black holes, particularly regarding the distinction between outward and inward directed light. There is no consensus on the implications of these behaviors, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the challenges of discussing concepts in relativity, including the need for clarity regarding the definitions of speed and direction in the context of black holes. There are unresolved assumptions about the nature of space-time and the effects of curvature on light and massive bodies.

stevenx
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Black holes can pull photons in although they move at the speed of light. So, does this means that black holes pull space-time in faster than light and if so, why can space-time "travel" faster than light?
 
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Welcome to PF;
Space-time does not "travel" (not the way you seem to be talking about anyway[*]). The BH is a region of extremely curved space-time so that, when viewed from a distance, objects tend to get sucked in (they "roll down" the curve).

It is a little like a wagon rolling on the ground - a steep-sided hole can "suck down" even the fastest wagon, but the ground does not have to move to do this.

--------------------

[*] there are situations where two objects can have their separation change faster than the speed of light ... the expansion of the Universe is one example.
You have to be careful not to let this confuse you. At this stage you just need to wrap you mind around the concept of space-time.
 
Last edited:
stevenx said:
Black holes can pull photons in although they move at the speed of light. So, does this means that black holes pull space-time in faster than light and if so, why can space-time "travel" faster than light?

As Simon Bridge has pointed out, this is not space-time traveling.

Interestingly however, space can and does 'expand' faster than the speed of light. This is also not a 'travel', and is not prevented by relativity theory.
 
In relativity, all speed has to be relative to something. When we talk of the "speed of light", we mean speed relative to a local particle with mass. Light trying to escape from a black hole is traveling at exactly the speed of light relative to a local observer who can't escape either and who is falling in faster than the light is.
 
<ahem> if the observer and the light are both heading for the center of mass, then isn't the light falling faster than the observer?

Perhaps, "the observer is more affected than the light".
Trying to talk sensibly, and simply, about relativity is a pain.
 
Simon Bridge said:
<ahem> if the observer and the light are both heading for the center of mass, then isn't the light falling faster than the observer?

Perhaps, "the observer is more affected than the light".
Trying to talk sensibly, and simply, about relativity is a pain.

No, inside the event horizon, light directed outgoing is falling slower than an arbitrarily accelerating outgoing particle, such that it remains going outwards at c relative to the struggling rocket. Yet both are actually decreasing their SC r coordinate (quite fast).

Dr. Greg said: " Light trying to escape from a black hole". The implications is outward directed light.
 
:) "if the observer and the light are both heading for the center of mass" i.e. going inwards. Presumably inwards traveling light is going faster than any inwards traveling massive body?
 
Simon Bridge said:
:) "if the observer and the light are both heading for the center of mass" i.e. going inwards. Presumably inwards traveling light is going faster than any inwards traveling massive body?

No again. Dr. Greg meant outward directed light. Due to the geometry of BH interior (spherically symmetric, uncharged), outward directed light moves steadily (even rapidly) closer to the r=0 singularity. However, massive body, trying to escape, decreases r even faster - again, even though firing thrust toward r=0. So outgoing light locally appears to move outwards at c relative to struggling rocket, while both decrease in r quite rapidly.
 
PAllen said:
me said:
Presumably inwards traveling light is going faster than any inwards traveling massive body?
No again.
No? inwards traveling light does not go faster than inward traveling massive bodies?
Dr. Greg meant outward directed light.
<sigh> I know - but Dr Greg responded to my comment, saying I got it wrong, using outward directed example to illustrate. But I was talking about inwards directed light. We spend all this time telling students that velocity is a vector right? [mumble: This was supposed to be a one-comment aside mutter grumble] :( Please let's continue in private or we'll hijack the thread.
 
  • #10
Simon Bridge said:
... but Dr Greg responded to my comment, saying I got it wrong
I'm sorry if you got that impression, but I never actually said that. I was responding to the original questioner, and my post wasn't even consecutive to yours, and made no mention of it. As PAllen said, I was talking about light aimed outward (i.e. trying, but failing, to go outward) rather than light aimed inward.

Never mind, let's see what the questioner has to say.
 

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