Does this variant of MOND exist?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the exploration of a variant of Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) that proposes an acceleration model based on mass-energy density rather than the traditional acceleration or velocity dependence. Participants examine whether this approach has been previously explored in the literature.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that MOND theories are not very popular but continue to persist, mentioning a new proposal that makes acceleration a function of mass-energy density.
  • Another participant questions the validity of discussing the proposal without a reference to support it.
  • A reference to Lee Smolin's work is provided, which suggests a regime of quantum gravity phenomena that modifies the equivalence principle and relates to MOND.
  • A participant expresses gratitude for the reference to Smolin's article, indicating it aligns with their inquiry into MOND theories that deviate from acceleration-based models.
  • Further attempts to modify MOND are mentioned, including a proposal to base gravitational attraction on local mass-energy density, and a desire for more serious references that explore these ideas.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of references for discussion, and while some acknowledge the potential of the proposed variant of MOND, there is no consensus on its validity or prior exploration in the literature.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on unpublished works or personal interpretations, and there are unresolved questions regarding the implications of varying the equivalence principle and the relationship between MOND and quantum gravity.

nomadreid
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MOND theories are not very popular, but they don't seem to be going away. As I understand the original one, acceleration is a function of the amount of acceleration which would be predicted by Newton's Law. I saw a proposal recently (not yet published, hence I cannot give a reference) which makes the acceleration a function rather of the mass-energy density at each point. My question is not whether this can hold water, but whether this has been tried before.
 
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nomadreid said:
not yet published, hence I cannot give a reference

Without a reference, what is there to discuss?
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
Without a reference, what is there to discuss?

MOND as a regime of quantum gravity
Lee Smolin
(Submitted on 3 Apr 2017)
We propose that there is a regime of quantum gravity phenomena, for the case that the cosmological constant is small and positive, which concerns phenomena at temperatures below the deSitter temperature, or length scales larger than the horizon. We observe that the standard form of the equivalence principle does not apply in this regime; we consider instead that a weakened form of the equivalence principle might hold in which the ratio of gravitational to inertial mass is a function of environmental and global parameters. We consider possible principles to determine that function. These lead to behaviour that, in the limit of hbar to zero and the speed of light is taken to infinity, reproduces the modifications of Newtonian dynamics first proposed by Milgrom. Thus MOND is elucidated as coding the physics of a novel regime of quantum gravity phenomena.
We propose also an effective description of this regime in terms of a bi-metric theory, valid in the approximation where the metric is static. This predicts a new effect, which modifies gravity for radial motions.
Comments: LaTex 22 pages, one figure
Subjects: General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc); Astrophysics of Galaxies (astro-ph.GA); High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th)
Cite as: arXiv:1704.00780 [gr-qc]
 
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kodama said:
Cite as: arXiv:1704.00780 [gr-qc]
Many thanks, kodama! Super! Smolin's article is definitely the sort of reference I needed. :smile:

Vanadium 50: your criticism is valid, so I could modify my question as follows: most MOND theories base the variation on gravity as a function of velocity or acceleration; Smolin (see reference) varies this by investigating a divergence from the equivalence principle of inertial and gravitational mass. A more amateurish attempt to do something less subtle, basing it on mass-energy density, is given by http://www.allanstime.com/UnifiedFieldTheory/gravity.htm. I have also seen an attempt (not to be published) to make the gravitational attraction in an infinitesimal region proportional to -(∇ρ)/ρ, where ρ is the local density of mass energy in that region. I am interested in more serious attempts to wean MOND-type theories away from dependence on acceleration (which makes them look like theory-made-to-fit-data) and based on something like mass-energy density [so that the solution of the flat rotation curves of galaxies comes out as a consequence, similar to the emergence of desirable qualities from Prof. Verlinde's theory based on string theory (https://arxiv.org/abs/1001.0785, https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.02269 ) and, more recently, https://arxiv.org/abs/1612.03034 ]. So, any further references would be appreciated.
 
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