Does Trying to Help Sometimes Make Things Worse?

[Math Is Hard]

My very favorite coffee place is actually part of a church. It used to be a somewhat famous restaurant in L.A. where a lot of movies were filmed but they went out of business and sold it to a non-denominational (Christian) church. They operate the front part as a coffee shop during the week but close it for church services and activities on the weekend.

I drive by it in the mornings and usually grab a latte or some fruit juice there. The people are really nice and easy-going. I met the youth minister there the other day and I asked him about the church and what they believed and he said "well, you know.. we're like most other churches, we worship the Lord, and we study and follow the Bible .. other than that - we're just waiting for the spaceship to come get us."

 

[Moonbear]

My very favorite coffee place is actually part of a church. It used to be a somewhat famous restaurant in L.A. where a lot of movies were filmed but they went out of business and sold it to a non-denominational (Christian) church. They operate the front part as a coffee shop during the week but close it for church services and activities on the weekend.

I drive by it in the mornings and usually grab a latte or some fruit juice there. The people are really nice and easy-going. I met the youth minister there the other day and I asked him about the church and what they believed and he said "well, you know.. we're like most other churches, we worship the Lord, and we study and follow the Bible .. other than that - we're just waiting for the spaceship to come get us."

Only in L.A. Though, hmm...a church that sells coffee. That sure would make those morning services more tolerable.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Only in L.A. Though, hmm...a church that sells coffee. That sure would make those morning services more tolerable.

Not as much open bar would, but well - I can see where there might be a small problem with that.

 

[Moonbear]

Not as much open bar would, but well - I can see where there might be a small problem with that.

Yeah, and they make you wait all the way to the end to get that gulp of communion wine. What do you mean you're supposed to just sip?[/size]

 

[hitssquad]

OCPD and issues with authority

the captain told me in no uncertain terms "Get off the ladder." He was well known as a disciplinarian and a generally unpleasant person among the majority of the crew. [...] The admiral came down and he didn't just get paint on his hand. He had a line of white paint on his dress blues that was about 6 inches long. The captain glared at me. [...] They would sometimes ridicule us while we were in their presence and we had no right to defend ourselves. [...] Thankfully the admiral smiled and kind of laughed. He just said "Don't worry about it." And signaled to the captain to continue on. Needless to say, that was the last time I put paint under the rail.

http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/ocpd.htm


--
individuals with OCPD [...] relate to others in terms of rank or status, with an authoritarian rather than equalitarian style. Accordingly, they are deferential, ingratiating, and obsequious with individuals of greater rank, power, or position. People with OCPD will go out of their way to impress those they define as in a superior status. They are quite anxious if they are unsure of their position with these individuals. On the other hand, people with OCPD are autocratic and condemnatory with subordinates. They often behave in a pompous and self-righteous manner. They are haughty and deprecatory but cloak their actions behind regulations and legalities. They justify their aggressive approach by referring to rules or to authorities higher than themselves.

[...]

Issues With Authority

Individuals with OCPD are extraordinarily careful to pay proper respect to those in authority. Their conduct is beyond reproach. By allying themselves with those in power, individuals with OCPD gain considerable strength and authority for themselves. They obtain the protection and prestige of those with greater status and power. They also absolve themselves from blame if they associate their actions with the views of external authorities. By submerging their individuality, they lose personal identity but evade the potential negative impact of taking a stand of their own (Millon, 1981, pp. 228-229). Once the dominant people or the authority figures in the environment of individuals with OCPD are identified, they will follow orders from these people -- often to absurd lengths (Richards, 1993, p. 255). Even if, as suggested by Pollak (Livesley, ed., 1995, p. 279), individuals with OCPD do resist authority through furtive, withholding behavior, their inclination to disown their own responsibility through attribution of decision-making authority to others and to follow people in power with obsequious conformity can make them dangerous to people in subordinate positions. With individuals who are lower in rank, people with OCPD are uncompromising and demanding. Power over others provides them with a sanctioned outlet to vent their hostility.
--

 

[Artman]

I drive by it in the mornings and usually grab a latte or some fruit juice there. The people are really nice and easy-going. I met the youth minister there the other day and I asked him about the church and what they believed and he said "well, you know.. we're like most other churches, we worship the Lord, and we study and follow the Bible .. other than that - we're just waiting for the spaceship to come get us."

That's funny. He sounds cool.

You know, even though it didn't work out, you can still feel good about what you tried to do. You can only control your own actions, not what happens around us or even the results of those actions. You're a good person MIH.

 

[Huckleberry]

http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/ocpd.htm


--
individuals with OCPD [...] relate to others in terms of rank or status, with an authoritarian rather than equalitarian style. Accordingly, they are deferential, ingratiating, and obsequious with individuals of greater rank, power, or position. People with OCPD will go out of their way to impress those they define as in a superior status. They are quite anxious if they are unsure of their position with these individuals. On the other hand, people with OCPD are autocratic and condemnatory with subordinates. They often behave in a pompous and self-righteous manner. They are haughty and deprecatory but cloak their actions behind regulations and legalities. They justify their aggressive approach by referring to rules or to authorities higher than themselves.

[...]

Issues With Authority

Individuals with OCPD are extraordinarily careful to pay proper respect to those in authority. Their conduct is beyond reproach. By allying themselves with those in power, individuals with OCPD gain considerable strength and authority for themselves. They obtain the protection and prestige of those with greater status and power. They also absolve themselves from blame if they associate their actions with the views of external authorities. By submerging their individuality, they lose personal identity but evade the potential negative impact of taking a stand of their own (Millon, 1981, pp. 228-229). Once the dominant people or the authority figures in the environment of individuals with OCPD are identified, they will follow orders from these people -- often to absurd lengths (Richards, 1993, p. 255). Even if, as suggested by Pollak (Livesley, ed., 1995, p. 279), individuals with OCPD do resist authority through furtive, withholding behavior, their inclination to disown their own responsibility through attribution of decision-making authority to others and to follow people in power with obsequious conformity can make them dangerous to people in subordinate positions. With individuals who are lower in rank, people with OCPD are uncompromising and demanding. Power over others provides them with a sanctioned outlet to vent their hostility.
--

Thanks Hitsquad! That was very informative and relative to my experience. I would say a high percentage of military officers are OCDP. That type of ingratiating/condemnatory attitude seemed very prevalent. I am probably biased though having been on the receiving end of that condemnatory behavior several times. I had to conform my own behavior to find any kind of peace.
Hmm, I wonder what effect 4 years of doing that would have on me. What I have noticed is that I have much less nationalism, and a greater skepticism of government and authority in general. I tend not to trust people in authority. What might I not have noticed?

Huck

 

[SOS2008]

Thanks Hitsquad! That was very informative and relative to my experience. I would say a high percentage of military officers are OCDP. That type of ingratiating/condemnatory attitude seemed very prevalent. I am probably biased though having been on the receiving end of that condemnatory behavior several times. I had to conform my own behavior to find any kind of peace.
Hmm, I wonder what effect 4 years of doing that would have on me. What I have noticed is that I have much less nationalism, and a greater skepticism of government and authority in general. I tend not to trust people in authority. What might I not have noticed?

Huck

I enjoyed that information too. When in college, I had a sign on my door that said: Question Authority (a shorter version of Ivan's signature--a new addition Ivan?). Then I went into the real world and quickly learned about "chain of command."

 

[Huckleberry]

I enjoyed that information too. When in college, I had a sign on my door that said: Question Authority (a shorter version of Ivan's signature--a new addition Ivan?). Then I went into the real world and quickly learned about "chain of command."

"Question Authority" isn't that The Clash motto? Never was into punk music
Looked for it and found an interesting site for song lyrics.
http://www.lyricsondemand.com

Yeah, authority is a real double edged sword. It's great to be a teenager and rebel against everything. Then one day you got to pay your own bills and keep a roof over your head and food in your families stomachs. I'll probably always think it's a good idea to question authority. Just got to choose your battles. Keep em honest.

Huck

 

[Moonbear]

"Question Authority" isn't that The Clash motto? Never was into punk music
Looked for it and found an interesting site for song lyrics.
http://www.lyricsondemand.com

Yeah, authority is a real double edged sword. It's great to be a teenager and rebel against everything. Then one day you got to pay your own bills and keep a roof over your head and food in your families stomachs. I'll probably always think it's a good idea to question authority. Just got to choose your battles. Keep em honest.

Huck

Questioning authority always seems so fun...until you ARE the authority.

 

[Huckleberry]

Most authority figures are actually middlemen. They are responsible for a group of people and responsible to an even higher authority figure. They have to worry about the needs of their workers, the demands of their boss, and their own personal needs as well. That's a lot of directions to be pulled in at once. I think it is especially important for them to question authority so they don't wind up OCPD like Hitsquad's link notes.

They could consider that while their secretary gets them a Mocha Latte.

Huck

 

[SOS2008]

Questioning authority always seems so fun...until you ARE the authority.

A doubled-edge sword indeed. The trick is to be your own manager and/or manage other people without the title. Of course a draw-back is that you don't get the pay either.

 

[hitssquad]

Differences between disordered behavior and disordered personality

I think it is especially important for them to question authority so they don't wind up OCPD like Hitsquad's link notes.

Adults don't wind up OCPD. Personality disorders (PDs) begin in youth and remain throughout life. This pervasive aspect of the rigid outlook and behavior pattern of PDs is one important difference between a personality disorder and a mere disorder. To be afflicted with a PD means to see yourself (self-image) and the world (view of others) for a lifetime in certain fundamental ways that are different from how non-PDs see themselves and the world.
http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/pdsa.htm#2

• An enduring pattern that deviates markedly from the person's culture [...]
  
• The enduring pattern is inflexible and pervasive.
  
• Onset is in adolescence or early adulthood.

For example, having obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) means to obsessively or compulsively do certain things or think certain thoughts. However, having obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD) means to see oneself to see the world outside of oneself in special dysfunctional ways:
http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/ocpdtable.htm


--
Self Image: OCPDs see themselves as responsible (Beck); they are harshly self-critical; they restrain feelings and neglect themselves (Benjamin).

View of Others: OCPDs see others as too casual, irresponsible, self-indulgent, or incompetent (Beck). OCPDs have intense, conflictual feelings toward both themselves and others (Millon).

Defensive Structure: OCPDs operate with a system of rules and standards (Beck). OCPDs live in the future, i.e., they obsess about foreseeing all dangers/problems (Stone).
--


So, personality disorder is different from other disorders in that it is about pervasive self-image and view of others, whereas no other types of disorders have to do with views of self and others.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Self Image: OCPDs see themselves as responsible (Beck); they are harshly self-critical; they restrain feelings and neglect themselves (Benjamin).

View of Others: OCPDs see others as too casual, irresponsible, self-indulgent, or incompetent (Beck). OCPDs have intense, conflictual feelings toward both themselves and others (Millon).

Defensive Structure: OCPDs operate with a system of rules and standards (Beck). OCPDs live in the future, i.e., they obsess about foreseeing all dangers/problems (Stone).
--

ruh roh. sorry. I feel really bad now. C'mon - I was just trying to protect you! It's a harsh world out there! Trust me -I know!
*sobs*

 

[SOS2008]

ruh roh. sorry. I feel really bad now. C'mon - I was just trying to protect you! It's a harsh world out there! Trust me -I know!
*sobs*

And I just noticed your location under your avatar!

 

[Math Is Hard]

And I just noticed your location under your avatar!

I am hoping one day to travel to Oregon to have a hotdog with Ivan, Tsu, Integral, and Mrs. Integral. You coming?

 

[SOS2008]

I am hoping one day to travel to Oregon to have a hotdog with Ivan, Tsu, Integral, and Mrs. Integral. You coming?

I've been making hints like crazy! When Tsu is done with the decorating, etc., I've been saying it's BBQ time. But I don't know if I should go uninvited...Ah heck, what am I saying? Yeh, let's go! (I'm trying to do the math--Integral + his better half = ?)

 

[BobG]

Thanks Hitsquad! That was very informative and relative to my experience. I would say a high percentage of military officers are OCDP. That type of ingratiating/condemnatory attitude seemed very prevalent. I am probably biased though having been on the receiving end of that condemnatory behavior several times. I had to conform my own behavior to find any kind of peace.
Hmm, I wonder what effect 4 years of doing that would have on me. What I have noticed is that I have much less nationalism, and a greater skepticism of government and authority in general. I tend not to trust people in authority. What might I not have noticed?

Huck

I would say a high percentage of junior officers [capt & below (Lt & below Navy)] exhibit that attitude. That's not the same thing as what HitSquad posted. Their problem is authority with lack of maturity and experience, not a personality disorder. I don't know what the Navy was like - maybe living on a ship creates a different environment, but by time most people make Major, they have the maturity and experience to match their authority.

Edit: Then again, most of the organizations I worked in had a pretty high percentage of nerdish type people (maybe even me), so they might not be that typical, either.

 

[Huckleberry]

I was stationed on the ship and had 3 captains in that time. The captain of a ship sets the tone for everyone else. If he is laid back and relaxed then everyone else relaxes a bit. Officers are more leanient and easy-going. LPOs (Leading Petty Officers) generally follow by example. It makes life much easier for everyone.
Sometimes the captains are very authoritarian. This isn't always a bad idea, but to keep a constant level of stress on the crew wears everyone out, officers included. Eventually things start slipping, people go AWOL, arguments turn into rivalries, people seek preferential treatment to avoid work and just an overall drop in moral. And then the oddest part, that particular captain would just get stricter!
He had some very unfortunate accidents during his command. When the deck edge elevator fell off (hanging by a cable) the NIS came into investigate and the rumor was that they determined it was mechanical failure. I heard other rumors too, but I'll keep them to myself.
We broke away from the pier once on a windy day. When two large ships are on the same pier it makes a wind tunnel effect inbetween them. It is the same way with water while transfering supplies with another ship. During high winds and storms the fore and aft lines (the most important) are supposed to be doubled-up to add extra security. The lines that day were not doubled up and I think the force of the wind on the side of the ship from the wind tunnel was enough to tear one of the lines, then the next, and so on. The shore power cable dropped into the water and I heard it blacked out parts of Norfolk. Some of the bollards were ripped out and some of the lines left dents and gashes in the ships hull from the recoil. A tug tried to push us against the pier but we crushed it against a wooden tug pier. We spent about 2 hours trying to send out lines and resecure ourselves while news crews were in the parking lot almost directly beneath the bow. Accidents happen, especially when people are tired and angry.

I didn't hang around with many admirals so I can't tell you what they are like in general. That one seemed alright by me. I've heard that they are usually reasonable men, more like politicians than commanders. Some captains are ok and others are not. We used a term "bucking" for admiral. Those captains are the worst because they just make demands and offer nothing in return.
For years I would have dreams about having to go back into the military and being stationed on the same ship. They were never good dreams. Haven't had one in a while now, maybe a year. This is the effect and the level of control that a captain can have on his crew.

Huck