Doppler Effect and the speed of sound

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves the Doppler Effect, where the original poster is trying to determine the speed of a siren based on observed frequency changes while moving. The context includes the speed of sound in air and the relative motion of the observer and the source of sound.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to derive the speed of the siren using frequency equations related to the Doppler Effect. Some participants question the signs used in the equations and the effects of relative motion on the observed frequencies.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively discussing the signs in the equations and their implications on the calculations. There is a focus on clarifying the effects of the observer's and source's velocities on the frequency observed, but no consensus has been reached on the correct approach yet.

Contextual Notes

The original poster's calculations lead to a negative speed for the siren, which raises questions about the setup and assumptions made in the equations. The discussion highlights the importance of sign conventions in the Doppler Effect equations.

Potatochip911
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Homework Statement


You are moving at a speed of 35m/s and hear a siren coming from behind you and observe the frequency to be 1370 Hz. The siren goes past you and the new frequency heard is 1330 Hz. What is the speed of the siren traveling at? The speed of sound in air is 340m/s.
f1=1370 Hz
f2= 1330 Hz
D=35m/s
V=340m/s

Homework Equations


fl=fo*((V+D)/(V+S))

The Attempt at a Solution


Since the original frequency is not given I decided to make 2 equations with the different frequencies then just divide to eliminate the original frequency.
f1=fo*((V+D)/(V-S)) <-Since the siren is approaching
f1*(V-S)=fo*(V+D)
f2=fo*((V-D)/(V+S)) <-Since the siren is moving away
f2*(V+S)=fo*(V-D)
Dividing the 2nd equation by the first,
[f2*(V+S)]/[f1*(V-S)]=(V-D)/(V+D)
Letting C=f2/f1
C(V+S)(V+D)=(V-D)(V-S)
C(V2+SV+DV+SD)=(V2-DV-SV+SD)
CV2+CSV+CDV+CSD=V2-DV-SV+SD
CV2+CDV+DV-V2=-SV+SD-CSD-CSV
CV(V+D)+V(D-V)=S(-V+D-CD-CV)
S={V[C(V+D)+(D-V)]/[V(-1-C)+D(1-C)]}
Which gives me S=-40m/s which doesn't make any sense, I'm not sure where my mistake is but the correct answer is +40m/s.
 
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Check the signs in the numerators of the equations for fi.

When the siren is approaching, you are moving away from the siren (at least relative to the air).
When the siren is moving away, you are approaching the siren (at least relative to the air).
 
mfb said:
Check the signs in the numerators of the equations for fi.

When the siren is approaching, you are moving away from the siren (at least relative to the air).
When the siren is moving away, you are approaching the siren (at least relative to the air).
So in f1 are both of the signs negative and in f2 both signs are positive?
 
Right.
In both cases, the velocity of the ambulance and your velocity have opposite effects, in one case you have larger numerator and denominator and in the other case both get reduced. Which one is which depends on your choice of the coordinate system.
 

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