News Double your chances of being homeless: Join the military

[mheslep]

You and what army?

You are going to fight me and my army for you freedom then? Dang, I thought I had me a new slave. Well it appears freedom is not so free.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

You are going to fight me and my army for you freedom then? Dang, I thought I had me a new slave. Well it appears freedom is not so free.

See, that didn't take thousands of years.

 

[EnumaElish]

I know I jumped into it way late, but the whole thread is predicated on the classic cause-effect relationship error. The military doesn't cause people to become homeless, it just happens that many of the people it recruits are in the low-end of society. People who would have ended up homeless whether they were in the military or not.

Exactly my thought; except to be fair to the OP, there is anecdotal evidence of "man with wife & job" going to war then losing both. Would he have lost them had he not gone to war? Sure, it is an individual example; and it shows the need for systematic studies which observe a group of individuals over time.

 

[Gokul43201]

I know I jumped into it way late, but the whole thread is predicated on the classic cause-effect relationship error. The military doesn't cause people to become homeless, it just happens that many of the people it recruits are in the low-end of society. People who would have ended up homeless whether they were in the military or not.

Actually, Ivan sort of covered this (albeit with a weak argument, IMO).

It is also noteworthy that the all-volunteer force claims to attract the best of the best. So this isn't a matter of recruiting people who are already losers unless the military is lying about the quality of the people who join.

 

[BobG]

Your argument that "members of the military are more likely to not have gone to college, and I think they're also more likely to have dropped out of high school." was discussed in message 18 of this thread. Does the military accept high school dropouts?

I'm pretty sure they do, and not just because of Iraq. I think they have for a long time. I was reading something the other day and they were saying how there has been an increase in the percentage of military personnel who have graduated from high school over the past 40 years, but they still do have some small percentage of high school drop outs I believe.

Supply and demand, plus putting requirements into context of the general population.

Of course the military has accepted high school dropouts in the past. The percentage of the US population that were high school graduates didn't pass 50% until around 1970 and was only 80% as late as 2000. (http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/education/phct41/table1.xls) Granted, statistics for the overall population lag current graduation rates since a high school dropout would be counted in the census for around 50 years based on average life expectancy.

The requirements for joining the military have varied depending on how many competing opportunities exist in the civilian world. By the 90's, it was becoming pretty rare to be able to enter the military without at least a GED and even then a recruit would need some sort of explanation for why they received a GED instead of actually graduating.

In general, you need a high school diploma to enter the military, but it's a lot easier to waive that requirement in the current environment where it's getting a lot tougher to recruit people into the military.

While saying the military attracts the best of the best might be an exaggeration, it has generally attracted the slightly above average if compared as a whole. Actual qualifications vary. Getting into a military acedemy is pretty tough. Getting into ROTC isn't hard at all. Getting accepted as a tail gunner (if those still existed) wouldn't require a very high ASVAB score. Getting accepted as a crypto-linguistics specialist requires some extremely high scores, both on ASVAB and on the DLABs (Defense Linguistic Aptitude Batteries?).

 

[Economist]

Granted, statistics for the overall population lag current graduation rates since a high school dropout would be counted in the census for around 50 years based on average life expectancy.

This is a good statistical/methodological point. However, I believe the stats that I saw where in regards to new recruits which would get rid of the bias you are talking about. I think the number of new recruits who didn't complete high school is less than 10%. By the way, this was a very recent article and was using data from within the last 2 - 4 years.

While saying the military attracts the best of the best might be an exaggeration, it has generally attracted the slightly above average if compared as a whole.

I was reading academic journal articles on the US military lately, and what you just said above is true. The military does not get the best of the best, but it does get people a little bit above average.

 

[edward]

In the past several years the Pentagon, primarily in regards to the Army, has lowered the bar for enlistment.

According to this article they they apparently are planning to lower it even further.

Washington, D.C. (AHN) - The Pentagon is considering easing its recruitment standards, particularly for persons with minor criminal records. In 2007, the number of Army recruits requiring waivers for misconduct, including drug use, theft, fighting, and carrying weapons in school, increased to 18 percent from 15 percent in 2006.

According to Defense Department statistics, 3 in every 10 recruits must get a waiver, some requiring more than one for other things, including minor health problems to low aptitude scores.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009077131


Even back during the days of the military draft these 3 in 10 would have been given a bus ticket home from the induction center.

 

[chemisttree]

Don’t forget that the numbers quoted in this story were published in a report issued by the http://www.endhomelessness.org/content/article/detail/1837 and are based entirely on estimates of the homelessness of veterans by homeless shelter staff (tabulated in the FY2006CHALENG Report (Appendix 5-6)). This data is tabulated from a questionnaire (page 12 of the report) that asks how was the data ‘estimated’. The answers to that question were:
56% of respondents – HUD Continuum of Care Reports (this doesn’t report veteran information)
13% of respondents - US Census Data
7% of respondents - VA Low Income Population Estimates
51% of respondents - Local homeless census studies
31% of respondents - VA client data
53% of respondents - Staff impressions
71% of respondents - Estimates from local community providers

The questionnaire asks for the POC to “…obtain an estimate of the highest number of homeless veterans in your service area on any given day in FY 2006.” A very difficult question to answer accurately. How would one accurately answer that? 13% thought the answer was hidden in the US Census data! 56% thought the number was tabulated in a HUD Continuum of Care Report! The answer to this question is the primary data used to arrive at the number of homeless veterans!

The number arrived at in the previous year was 195,254 veterans homeless out of a total homeless population of 744,313 and is the number used to arrive at the “26% of all homeless are veterans” conclusion. Different methods and sources are used to arrive at the 744,313 number. The 744,313 number doesn’t follow ANY methodology!

This report is based on point-in-time information provided to HUD by Continuums of Care (CoCs) in the 2006 Continuum of Care Homeless Assistance Programs application and has not been independently verified by HUD. The user is cautioned that although CoCs are required to provide an unduplicated count of homeless persons, a standardized methodology to determine unduplicated counts of homeless persons within CoCs has not yet been implemented and the reliability of different street count methodologies can vary. Furthermore any data within this report that aggregates information above the CoC level is not unduplicated for homeless persons that may have been counted in more than one CoC..

http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/homeless/local/reports/06StatesHomelessData.pdf

And finally, the veteran data are presented with the following note:

Notes: The estimates on homeless veterans come from the CHALENG data set collected by the Department of Veterans Affairs. For more information on how these data are gathered, please see the methodological appendix available at www.endhomelessness.org. The estimate on the number of homeless people in 2005 comes from author tabulations of HUD Continuum of Care data. For more information, please see Homelessness Counts (2006) published by the National Alliance to End Homelessness.

No such methodological appendix is available at the website given…

 

[ShawnD]

Another stat successfully debunked. Nice work!

 

[edward]

Another stat successfully debunked. Nice work!

And yet their are a significant number of homless veterans. They don't all show up at a vet center just to be counted at a roll call. You would suggest that years of work were debunked by a few computer key strokes. You must live in Canada

There are thousands of people including volunteers who work to help these veterans. If there were no homless veterans there would not be homeless veterans programs.

http://www1.va.gov/homeless/

http://www1.va.gov/homeless/page.cfm?pg=2

http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/hmlssfs.asp

 

[edward]

No such methodological appendix is available at the website given…

Actually , it is the techncal appendix that won't open for some reason. It appears Adobe won't open the file


The Methodological Index is on page 40 of the PDF.

Appendix B:
Methodology
This report summarizes and tabulates data from 463 CoC point-in-time studies conducted
in 2005. Each year, CoCs submit these data to HUD in the Exhibit 1 table of
the SuperNOFA application. We obtained the data in electronic form from Abt Associates
with permission from HUD.
Methodology
In the 2005 SuperNOFA application the Exhibit 1 table was accompanied by a methodological
narrative supplied by the CoC. The narrative describes their methods for collecting
point-in-time data. Research staff from the Homelessness Research Institute at
the National Alliance to End Homelessness read through each methodology, entering
key variables into a database. This information helped us understand how the sites collected
the data. There are limits to this approach—most notably that the narratives are
open-ended and often leave out key information. Nevertheless, the methodological
narratives are the only widely available information on how the data were collected so
we are including them in this report. For more information on how the data were collected,
local Continuums of Care should be contacted. We summarized our analysis of
the narratives in a technical appendix, available at www.endhomelessness.org.

http://www.comteam.org/naeh_report07.pdf

 

[drankin]

I don't believe joining he military increases your chance of being homeless. Basically, your chance of being homeless is 99% dependent on how you choose to live. Of the homeless people that I have met very few have ever served in the military. This is just a wacky thread (not just because I'm in it . I'm really having a hard time following the purpose of the OP.

A few degrees off the subject but if you gave homes, free and clear, to 100 homeless individuals and came back 5 years later, how many would not be homeless again? I'd say 10-15 might make something of the gift. It would be an interesting experiment for a Bill Gates type to try.

 

[chemisttree]

Actually , it is the techncal appendix that won't open for some reason. It appears Adobe won't open the file

The Methodological Index is on page 40 of the PDF.

I saw that appendix. There is no method described, only a reference to another unavailable report/source. Methodology appears to be ad hoc.

In the 2005 SuperNOFA application the Exhibit 1 table was accompanied by a methodological narrative supplied by the CoC.

Make it up as you go...

My comments weren't aimed at denying that there is a problem, only that the problem has serious inherent flaws to accurately reflect reality. This information appears to be based ultimately on a claim by a homeless person that they are indeed a veteran. There may be no way to verify the claim and there is considerable motivation to make the claim.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

This information appears to be based ultimately on a claim by a homeless person that they are indeed a veteran. There may be no way to verify the claim and there is considerable motivation to make the claim.

What is the motivation?

 

[chemisttree]

VA offers a wide array of special programs and initiatives specifically designed to help homeless veterans live as self-sufficiently and independently as possible. In fact,VA is the only Federal agency that provides substantial hands-on assistance directly to homeless persons. Although limited to veterans and their dependents, VA's major homeless-specific programs constitute the largest integrated network of homeless treatment and assistance services in the country.

VA's specialized homeless veterans treatment programs have grown and developed since they were first authorized in 1987. The programs strive to offer a continuum of services that include:

-aggressive outreach to those veterans living on streets and in shelters who otherwise would not seek assistance;
-clinical assessment and referral to needed medical treatment for physical and psychiatric disorders, including substance abuse;
-long-term sheltered transitional assistance, case management, and rehabilitation;
-employment assistance and linkage with available income supports; and supported permanent housing.

 

[chemisttree]

Another problem with the statistic ("...they represent only 11 percent of the civilian adult population.") is that it is compared to the general adult population which includes females. Over 90 percent of all veterans are male and they represent only 20 percent of the adult male population in general. Comparing their homeless rates by gender (using Census data as a guide) gives a much different result and one that is not so newsworthy.

The male veteran homeless rate is actually less than 25% higher than the male veteran percentage in the male general adult population.

Also, to imply that this (moderate) increased incidence of homelessness is somehow related to combat stress is misleading as well since homeless veterans are less likely to have served in combat than those who have homes.

 

[outsider]

...since homeless veterans are less likely to have served in combat than those who have homes.

what do u base this on?

 

[drankin]

what do u base this on?

Of all the soldiers we have on the ground only a fraction are combat, mainly Army and Marines. Most are support in some fashion, Navy and Airforce to greater extent. All are trained for it but the operational support exceeds those who are pulling the trigger.

All those serving in wartime are veterans. I think that is what he is saying.

 

[chemisttree]

I was hoping that somebody would ask...

Of 10,524 homeless veterans assessed in a 43-site VA program, 50 percent served during the Vietnam War era, compared to only 29 percent of all veterans in the general population. This reflects the greater risk of homelessness among men aged 30-44 rather than the impact of Vietnam Era service. The proportion of homeless veterans who served in the Vietnam Theater (44.9 percent), and the proportion exposed to combat fire (40.5 percent) were similar to those of nonhomeless veterans. Homeless combat veterans who are not White were more likely to have psychiatric, alcohol, and medical problems than homeless noncombat Vietnam veterans who are not White.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1405091

and

Despite the overrepresentation of veterans in the homeless population, homelessness among veterans is not clearly related to combat military experience. Rather, studies show that homeless veterans appear less likely to have served in combat than housed veterans (Rosenheck, 1996).

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/veterans.pdf", Robert et al. "Homeless Veterans," in Homelessness in America, 1996. National Coalition for the Homeless, 2201 P St. NW, Washington, DC 20037; 202/462-4822.

Another quote from that factsheet:

Approximately 40% of homeless men are veterans, although veterans comprise only 34% of the general adult male population. The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans estimates that on any given night, 200,000 veterans are homeless (National Coalition for Homeless Veterans, 2006).

Using these numbers (40% of homeless men are veterans and 34% of the general adult male population) roughly 17.6% ((40-34)/34*100)more veteran males make up the homeless male population than would otherwise be predicted. Very different than the 200% the OP (and the story) suggested...

 

[chemisttree]

All those serving in wartime are veterans. I think that is what he is saying.

Actually the definition of veteran is anyone who once served in the military.

No war required...

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

VA offers a wide array of special programs and initiatives specifically designed to help homeless veterans live as self-sufficiently and independently as possible. In fact,VA is the only Federal agency that provides substantial hands-on assistance directly to homeless persons. Although limited to veterans and their dependents, VA's major homeless-specific programs constitute the largest integrated network of homeless treatment and assistance services in the country.

VA's specialized homeless veterans treatment programs have grown and developed since they were first authorized in 1987. The programs strive to offer a continuum of services that include:

-aggressive outreach to those veterans living on streets and in shelters who otherwise would not seek assistance;
-clinical assessment and referral to needed medical treatment for physical and psychiatric disorders, including substance abuse;
-long-term sheltered transitional assistance, case management, and rehabilitation;
-employment assistance and linkage with available income supports; and supported permanent housing.

But what would be the motivation for making the claim if it weren't true?

 

[chemisttree]

To obtain services, funding or sympathy that would otherwise be unavailable.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

To obtain services, funding or sympathy that would otherwise be unavailable.

From who? Surely not the Homelessness Research Institute!

 

[drankin]

Actually the definition of veteran is anyone who once served in the military.

No war required...

I suppose you are right though the Random House dictionary does not specify that. For example, if someone is a cop for 3 years and then leaves the force, he isn't regarded as a police veteran. I'm used to the term veteran being used as someone who served during a time of war.

 

[chemisttree]

From who? Surely not the Homelessness Research Institute!

http://www1.va.gov/homeless/docs/GPD_Regs_38_CFR_Part_61.pdf

C'mon Jimmy. You're not that naive.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

[C'mon Jimmy. You're not that naive.

The VA provides 'services, funding or sympathy' to people who are not veterans, but who claim to be?

 

[chemisttree]

Remember that STAFF fills out the questionnaires. They get per diems and grants for veterans in their care based on an enumeration.
A homeless man holding a sign that says "Veteran - Please Help" is the example that leaps to mind regarding the sympathy. It beats the alternative 'Mentally Ill -Please Help' or 'Addicted - Please Help'. I used to see signs that read "Will work for food" long ago but not so much these days. With the ongoing war, the veteran claim must work better.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Thanks Chemisttree, now I understand. So we would expect that using this methodology we would find 100% of homeless people are vets. The only reason we don't is that 75% of homeless people are too stupid to realize that they should claim to be veterans.

 

[Huckleberry]

I pretty much agree with Russ. With the exception of some kind of mental trauma incurred while in service, the military does not 'create' homeless people IMO.

Hey, my brother is a high-school dropout who joined the army. Before he was allowed to join, the army arranged for him to take the test to receive a GED. After he received his GED he was allowed to enter. I don't think it is customary for the military to enlist individuals without at least a GED.

How's this idea? The military enlists from a large range of individuals but typically they share the traits of being young males. Could there be something that young men are missing during the years that they are enlisted that would enable them to succeed in civilian life? Do they feel inferior in some way to their civilian peers, who are already developed in their relationships and careers, whereas the recently discharged veteran may be more likely to be just beginning to develop these areas?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I pretty much agree with Russ. With the exception of some kind of mental trauma incurred while in service, the military does not 'create' homeless people IMO.

Hey, my brother is a high-school dropout who joined the army. Before he was allowed to join, the army arranged for him to take the test to receive a GED. After he received his GED he was allowed to enter. I don't think it is customary for the military to enlist individuals without at least a GED.

How's this idea? The military enlists from a large range of individuals but typically they share the traits of being young males. Could there be something that young men are missing during the years that they are enlisted that would enable them to succeed in civilian life? Do they feel inferior in some way to their civilian peers, who are already developed in their relationships and careers, whereas the recently discharged veteran may be more likely to be just beginning to develop these areas?

So does the military 'create' homeless people or doesn't it?