Dragon flight and whether it would be possible

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of dragon flight, specifically focusing on the calculations needed for wing span and area required for a dragon of specified dimensions. Participants explore various design considerations, biological implications, and the relationship between weight and flight mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references Peter Dickinson's argument that a full-sized dragon would require an impractical wingspan of 600 feet, suggesting that lighter-than-air gases might be necessary for flight.
  • Another participant proposes using a glider design as a basis for a biologically engineered dragon, questioning the weight estimates and suggesting that birds have lighter bodies relative to their size.
  • A distinction is made between reptilian dragons and airplane designs, emphasizing that the wings would serve both propulsion and lift, with a need for maneuverability and hovering ability.
  • One participant suggests that the weight estimate for a 20-foot dragon might need adjustment to 300 pounds, considering various anatomical features and internal structures.
  • Another participant questions the need for realism in dragon design, suggesting magical properties could allow for larger sizes with minimal wing requirements.
  • A participant expresses frustration with the complexity of physics calculations and requests a straightforward formula for wing area related to lift, indicating a desire for practical assistance.
  • Concerns are raised about the appropriateness of language used in the discussion, with a reminder of the forum's standards.
  • One participant introduces the concept of pterosaurs as a real-world example of flying reptiles, questioning the need for a fictional dragon model.
  • A later reply emphasizes the need for a specific formula relating wing area to lift, reiterating the request for focused assistance without additional suggestions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the feasibility and design of dragon flight, with no consensus on the weight estimates or the necessity of realism versus fantastical elements. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific calculations and design parameters for a dragon.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of physics involved in calculating flight mechanics, with some expressing uncertainty about the assumptions underlying weight estimates and design considerations.

huggy bear
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I'm wrestling with the question of dragon flight and whether it would be possible/feasible.
I've read the book "the Flight of Dragons" Peter Dickinson, Harper & row, 1979.

Dickinson argues that for a full sized dragon, which he puts at 90 feet long, six feet wide and 20,000 pounds, a dragon would need a wingspan of 600 feet (16,000 square feet) which is (according to him) aerodynamically impossible.
Dickinson theorizes that if dragons existed they would have flown by biologically produced, lighter than air gasses (like a zeppelin).

I want to know how i could calculate the wing span/area required for a 20ft 200lb dragon without gasses.

OR

what would be the maximum feasible dimensions for a purely wing powered dragon?
 
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I don't see anything that fundamentally prevents you taking an old design for a two-passenger glider, and replacing wood and canvas with bone and leather, for an idea of what a biologically engineered dragon might be like. That weight-estimate sounds excessive to me, don't birds tend to have light bodies (compared to their size and fierceness)?
 


Depends on your dragon...if you're looking into it as a reptilian dragon, then your design should be somewhat different from that of an airplane.
 


a reptilian dragon.

the design would differ from that of a plane because the wings are the means of propulsion as well as lift, and there needs to be a degree of maneuverability, and many myths refer to an ability to hover.

and both weight estimates seem pretty spot on to me (except mine might be a bit light, seriously, it's 20ft long, include internal organs, giant talons, a huge armoured head and flight muscles, as well as the scaly, armoured hide, that's a lot of weight, maybe it should be adjusted to 300lb...)
 


What's the point? If you are writing about dragons then your readers obviously are not that stuck on realism. Just make their scales magically force air down, then they can be as large as you want and only need their wings for steering.
 


dude, the point is to try and be realistic (at least, within the realms of physical possibility) i want to actually calculate wing span/area, i looked up some formulas on the interwebz and it all got too complicated, so i hoped someone nerdy (read: smart/can be bothered/already knows how/is experienced in the field) could just, like pull a formula from their arse and just say; "here, use this" all you guys have given me is ideas I've already had.

also this is a physics forum, if i could f*ck with the laws of physics (or thought i could) would I be here right now?

EDIT: if i was being insulting/condescending I'm Sorry: it's because I'm used to gaming forums, where the whole point is to be condescending/call each other n00bs
 


Please don't use offensive language. This is not an adolescent board. We don't allow slang.

Concerning the OP: what's wrong with *actual* flying reptilian "dragons": pterosaurs ?
 


we need FOUR legged reptiles with wings & teeth, besides all i want is a formula relating wing area to lift in flying animals, that's all I'm asking for, no extra suggestions, just a formula
 

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