EDF Rocket with Thrust Tube: Physics Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the physics of an electric ducted fan (EDF) rocket, specifically focusing on the relationship between the outlet area of a thrust tube and the resulting thrust. Participants explore concepts related to airflow, pressure, and mass flow rate in the context of ducted fans versus propellers.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why a smaller outlet area of a thrust tube results in higher thrust, referencing a statement about back pressure and mass flow rate from another forum.
  • Another participant asserts that a fan will not produce the same mass flow rate at a higher outlet pressure.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the differences between ducted fans and propellers, suggesting that their understanding may be conflated.
  • Clarification is provided that EDF stands for electric ducted fan, and a TLA is defined as a Three Letter Acronym.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the relationship between outlet area and thrust, with some asserting that higher outlet pressure affects mass flow rate, while others express confusion about the underlying principles.

Contextual Notes

There is mention of potential confusion arising from using a textbook citation for propellers in the context of ducted fans, indicating a possible limitation in the applicability of the cited material.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in the physics of propulsion systems, particularly in the context of model rockets and ducted fans, may find this discussion relevant.

Johan M
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TL;DR
My goal is to understand why EDF thrust increases when the outlet area of a thrust tube increases for static thrust. The formula I've seen for static thrust depends on outlet velocity and mass flowrate; mass flowrate is constant, and increased outlet area would decrease velocity wrt bernoulli, so I am uncertain why some RC forums say other wise
Hi everyone. I am tasked with making an EDF rocket for a university project. The end of the rocket has a set of flaps that redirect air to control the rockets trajectory, seen in the image. The 90mm EDF itself is located near region 1.
Thrust tube.jpg
. I would like to know why, the physics behind it, a smaller outlet area of a thrust tube results in a higher thrust. I have posted this question on a separate RC forum :https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?3931737-EDF-Thrust-tube-theory#post47447981 but I still felt uncertainty. One of the members stated: "Remember an exhaust nozzle increases the back pressure so the fan has to do more work. The energy going into the fan is unchanged so as the pressure rises the mass flow reduces''. I can see why the back pressure would increase through bernoulli, but I don't understand why the mass flow rate reduces; the smaller area and larger velocity work out to the same flowrate, also seen below:
mass flowrate.JPG

From the same textbook of the above picture, the thrust formula below was found:
Ducted fan thrust.JPG

It seemed to solely depend on exit velocity (For static thrust I've seen V0 can be taken as zero). I would appreciate any advice in this regard, thanks.
 
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A fan won't produce the same mass flowrate at a higher outlet pressure.
 
Dullard said:
A fan won't produce the same mass flowrate at a higher outlet pressure.
Hi Dullard thanks for the response. Can you please elaborate why it is such?
 
I'm probably under-qualified to elaborate. That's the way that fans work.

Some of the confusion may be the result of the fact that you're talking about a ducted fan (compressible fluid), but are using a textbook citation for a propellor (incompressible fluid).
 
Dullard said:
I'm probably under-qualified to elaborate. That's the way that fans work.

Some of the confusion may be the result of the fact that you're talking about a ducted fan (compressible fluid), but are using a textbook citation for a propellor (incompressible fluid).
No worries. I will do some research on it. I think of confused the terms in addition; I had thought a ducted fan and ducted propeller are the same
 
I understand that EDF is just another TLA, but what does EDF actually stand for ?
 
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Baluncore said:
I understand that EDF is just another TLA, but what does EDF actually stand for ?
I am not sure what TLA refers to, but an EDF is an electric ducted fan
 
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Johan M said:
I am not sure what TLA refers to, but an EDF is an electric ducted fan
A TLA is a Three Letter Acronym, which is actually an initialism.
 
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Baluncore said:
A TLA is a Three Letter Acronym, which is actually an initialism.
Ah I see, not my finest moment I admit
 

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