EFE: Why is there a curvature tensor and curvature scalar?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the presence of both a curvature tensor and a curvature scalar in the Einstein field equations of general relativity. Participants explore the mathematical structure and implications of these terms, including their derivations and significance in the context of the theory.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the curvature scalar is a contraction of the Ricci tensor, represented as R = Rμμ.
  • Others argue that the Riemann-Christoffel curvature tensor is the only independent curvature, with the Ricci curvature and curvature scalar being derived concepts.
  • A participant mentions that the specific combination of terms in the Einstein tensor is unique in satisfying the divergence-free condition.
  • There is a discussion about the constant factor of 8π in the Einstein field equations, with some suggesting it arises from matching predictions with Newtonian gravity, while others indicate it relates to the properties of the Christoffel symbols.
  • Some participants question the physical reasoning behind the factor of 8π, leading to further exploration of its implications in the context of energy and momentum conservation.
  • There are references to continuity conditions on the stress-energy tensor and its relationship to conservation laws, with some participants clarifying that the divergence-free condition is linked to the Einstein field equations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the significance and interpretation of the curvature terms in the Einstein field equations. There is no consensus on the reasons behind the factor of 8π or the implications of the divergence-free condition.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes references to mathematical derivations and assumptions that may not be universally accepted or fully resolved, particularly regarding the nature of curvature and its implications in general relativity.

PerpStudent
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In the Einstein tensor equation for general relativity, why are there two terms for curvature: specifically the curvature tensor and the curvature scalar multiplied by the metric tensor?
 
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PerpStudent said:
In the Einstein tensor equation for general relativity, why are there two terms for curvature: specifically the curvature tensor and the curvature scalar multiplied by the metric tensor?
When the Einstein-Hilbert action is extremized wrt the inverse metric, that is what emerges. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein–Hilbert_action.

Are you aware that the curvature scalar is the contraction of the Ricci tensor, so R = Rμμ.
 
Hi PerpStudent! :smile:

Because the traceless symmetric part of Aij is Aij - 1/4 tr(A) gij.

Any tensor equation can be "traced" and "tracelesssed".

ie the trace of the equation is true, and the traceless symmetric part of the equation is true.

So in the Einstein field equations we expect …

R = constant*T

Rij - 1/4 R gij = constant* (Tij - 1/4 T gij)​

(and it turns out the constants have to be -8π and 8π, to give the Newtonian inverse-square law in the low-field limit)
 
PerpStudent said:
In the Einstein tensor equation for general relativity, why are there two terms for curvature: specifically the curvature tensor and the curvature scalar multiplied by the metric tensor?

There's only one independent / fundamental curvature, namely the Riemann-Christoffel curvature tensor. The so-called Ricci curvature and the curvature scalar are simply contractions of the 4th rank tensor with respect with the metric once and twice, respectively. They are susequently derived concepts.

One can write down the EFE in terms of the Riemann-Christoffel curvature tensor only (in the absence of matter) as:

[tex]g^{\mu \alpha}R_{\mu \nu|\alpha \beta}-\frac{1}{2}g_{\nu \beta}g^{\mu \alpha}g^{\lambda \sigma}R_{\mu \lambda|\alpha \sigma} = 0[/tex]

but it won't look pretty, that's why the Ricci curvature tensor and the Ricci scalar are put into GR.
 
The "reason" the particular combination

[tex]G^{\mu\nu} \equiv R^{\mu\nu} - \frac12 R g^{\mu\nu}[/tex]
appears is because is this the unique combination of curvatures that satisfies

[tex]\nabla_\mu G^{\mu\nu} = 0.[/tex]
 
Ben Niehoff said:
The "reason" the particular combination

[tex]G^{\mu\nu} \equiv R^{\mu\nu} - \frac12 R g^{\mu\nu}[/tex]
appears is because is this the unique combination of curvatures that satisfies

[tex]\nabla_\mu G^{\mu\nu} = 0.[/tex]

To expand on this , Einstein's equation says that G_uv = 8 pi T_uv, where T_uv is the stress-energy tensor.

Continuiity conditions on the stress-energy tensor, T_uv require that
[tex]\nabla_\mu T^{\mu\nu} = 0.[/tex] i.e. that the tensor be divergence free.

So since T_uv, the rhs is divergence free, the lhs has to be divergence free as well.
 
Last edited:
pervect, ben, as a matter of interest, do you know any easy-to-understand reason why it's 8π ?

4π I'm more or less used to (and even 4π 10-7 :rolleyes:) …

but why 8 ? :confused:
 
My 2ç. There's no <physical> reason, the "extra" 2 comes from the 1/2 of the Christoffel symbols which has to do with the metric being assumed torsionless and symmetric.
 
tiny-tim said:
pervect, ben, as a matter of interest, do you know any easy-to-understand reason why it's 8π ?

4π I'm more or less used to (and even 4π 10-7 :rolleyes:) …

but why 8 ? :confused:

The constant comes from matching the Einstein Field Equations to the Newtonian equation for gravitation in the low speed, low gravity case (makes sure that General Relativity gives the same predictions in this case as Newtonian gravity).
 
  • #10
pervect said:
To expand on this , Einstein's equation says that G_uv = 8 pi T_uv, where T_uv is the stress-energy tensor.

Continuiity conditions on the stress-energy tensor, T_uv require that
[tex]\nabla_\mu T^{\mu\nu} = 0.[/tex] i.e. that the tensor be divergence free.

So since T_uv, the rhs is divergence free, the lhs has to be divergence free as well.

Is the requirement that [tex]\nabla_\mu T^{\mu\nu} = 0.[/tex] due to energy and momentum conservation?
 
  • #13
PerpStudent said:
Is the requirement that [tex]\nabla_\mu T^{\mu\nu} = 0.[/tex] due to energy and momentum conservation?

No, see the reason in the my post above this one.
 
  • #14
PerpStudent said:
Is the requirement that [tex]\nabla_\mu T^{\mu\nu} = 0.[/tex] due to energy and momentum conservation?

It's very closely related.

You can think of it as being due to energy and momentum conservation in a local sense, i.e. at a point.

See for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_equation

I'm pretty sure Wald and MTW discuss this with more rigor - I'd have to look stuff up to refresh my recollection to give any real detail, at least if I wanted to avoid misleading anyone.
 

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