Effectiveness of the United Nations

[Evo]

Nobahar, the parts that were deleted were about the US, not the UN. The parts about the UN were left.

If this thread doesn't immediately go back to discussion of the UN, it will be locked.

 

[nobahar]

Nobahar, the parts that were deleted were about the US, not the UN. The parts about the UN were left.

If this thread doesn't immediately go back to discussion of the UN, it will be locked.

My post was a response to Russ Watters. A PF mentor. If he can post somehting in this thread. Surely I can reply to it?
Also, I explained why I posted those sources. I thought evidence was required.

 

[Drakkith]

Excellent response. In my opinion, you haven't offered anything to the thread other than get offended.

Offended? No, I'm not offended.

I did. A lengthy one. Again it seems you want to focus on other areas of discussion on the effectiveness of the UN that doesn't involve the US. Perhaps discussing how marketable the logo is, might be more suitable? Again, the US is important in the effectiveness of the UN: if countries acted together rather than threatening to withdraw funding when the majority of countries vote in a way not wanted by certain other countries (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-after-it-accepts-Palestinian-membership.html) and claiming negotiations are better pursued outside of the UN and attempting to side-step the application of International law (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20550864) then it might be more EFFECTIVE in reaching a just resolution in conflicts and obtaining justice, since the decisions aren't subject to the opinion or interests of a single country.

The US objected to recognizing Palestine as a non-member state based on its own history with Israel along with the 1993 Oslo peace accords. I don't know why you claim that countries tried to go around international law when a prior peace agreement was made with the following provision. What law was broken? (I'm asking, not saying there was no law broken)

I quote from your 2nd link:

Opponents of the bid say a Palestinian state should emerge only out of bilateral negotiations, as set out in the 1993 Oslo peace accords under which the Palestinian Authority was established.

It looks to me, without digging very deeply, that the 1993 peace accords established a way for Palestine to be recognized as an official country or whatever that didn't involve a UN vote. Obviously without an agreement between Israel and Palestine things won't get any better any time soon. However it would appear that the UN was successful this time if you want to look at it that way. So what's the problem? The US didn't want something to happen and we didn't get our way. That's not really what you'd expect if the US was controlling the UN in any substantial way as some people believe.

It would be nice if everyone could agree on everything, but that simply isn't the case and nothing is going to change it. If your argument boils down to "If everyone could agree", then you've already lost. The fact is that no one agrees on almost anything in life, it's all one big compromise after another. From a personal level between yourself and your best friends and family all the way up to the international level people do nothing but argue, negotiate, and compromise in a million different ways to get what they want.

 

[nobahar]

Offended? No, I'm not offended.

Sorry. Your response suggested otherwise to me. I just didn't appreciate your response, which has no explanation.

...So what's the problem? The US didn't want something to happen and we didn't get our way. That's not really what you'd expect if the US was controlling the UN in any substantial way as some people believe.

I don't want to get into a debate on Palestine because that is definitely off-topic. Whatever the reason the US voted against, fine.

From my second link:
""This is a whole new ball-game now. Israel will be dealing with a member of the international community, a state called Palestine with rights," senior PLO official Hanan Ashrawi told the BBC.

"We will have access to international organisations and agencies and we will take it from there."

There had been lobbying by Israel and the US to try to delay the vote or change the text to obtain guarantees that no international legal action would be taken against Israel."

An attempt to exempt Israel from International law. International law should always be applied to everyone all the time if the UN is to be effective, surely? No special treatment, no exceptions.

It would be nice if everyone could agree on everything, but that simply isn't the case and nothing is going to change it. If your argument boils down to "If everyone could agree", then you've already lost. The fact is that no one agrees on almost anything in life, it's all one big compromise after another. From a personal level between yourself and your best friends and family all the way up to the international level people do nothing but argue, negotiate, and compromise in a million different ways to get what they want.

I said co-operate, which means working together and compromising, etc. Not, as I said in my last post, withdrawing funding or ignoring the UN.

 

[Drakkith]

From my second link:
""This is a whole new ball-game now. Israel will be dealing with a member of the international community, a state called Palestine with rights," senior PLO official Hanan Ashrawi told the BBC.

"We will have access to international organisations and agencies and we will take it from there."

There had been lobbying by Israel and the US to try to delay the vote or change the text to obtain guarantees that no international legal action would be taken against Israel."

An attempt to exempt Israel from International law. International law should always be applied to everyone all the time if the UN is to be effective, surely? No special treatment, no exceptions.

I think you may misunderstand what they mean here. I'm willing to bet that the law didn't apply because it was one that deals with non-member states or member states. This is probably not something like "don't commit genocide", but more likely one about asking for and receiving aid, help in negotiations, etc. However as I don't have any real idea about what they are talking about I cannot be certain.

I said co-operate, which means working together and compromising, etc. Not, as I said in my last post, withdrawing funding or ignoring the UN.

And what do you do when compromise fails? Ignore it? That is one choice, and many could argue that it would be the right choice.

 

[russ_watters]

Though I have a strong opinion on the issue, I think this Palestine statehood/ICC issue at best doesn't have a lot of relevance or at worst argues against your point because though the US objected, the measure still passed. This shows a lack of American/Western hegemony over the UN's operations.

I read a good Op-Ed on CNN.com this morning about Egypt's constitution and it made a point that is salient to this thread. The article sympathized with the Egyptian people over the fact that they haven't gotten what they wanted out of their revolution, which produced a constitution that would codify fundamentalist principals and restrict freeddom. The commentary was this:

The framers of the Egyptian constitution misunderstand democracy. Democracy is not about majority rule, it is about freedom, equality and the rule of law. While theoretically any system could provide these things, in practice none ever does except democracy. So that's why democracy exists. And the converse is also true: though Democracy is the only system that reliably provides these things, if done wrong it can restrict them just as surely as other systems do. And that's what happened (is trying to happeng) in Egypt.

That's what I see happening here, with the UN on Palestine and in other cases. The UN is doing democrcacy wrong. The UN is a democracy that does not protect the principles for which democracy was created to protect. Instead, it operates on majority rule even if the majority can't agree to protect those who need to be protected (Rwanda) or worse, acts or tries to act against them (Israel).

I'll liken this to a KKK rally, without intending an actual comparison of the KKK to another entity, besides simply the fact that it is unpopular. Rule of law, equality and freedom require a government to not only allow the KKK to demonstrate, but actively protect it from harm while it is does so. A too-literal interpretation of democracy would enable the police to either ignore a violent clash with counter-demonstrators (who typically outnumber KKK members in such circumstances) or worse, participate in the clash.

There are a lot more oppressive governments in the world than there are governments that protect democratic principles. And even some that profess to be democratic actually use democracy to suppress democratic principles. In my view, the ineptitude of the UN is largely a reflection of this fact. The UN does democracy wrong because most of the world does it wrong. But it is a two-pronged problem:

1. If the countries in the UN took seriously their mandate, then actions such as stopping the Rwanda genocide would be a no-brainer. They'd happen rapidly and with wide support, being driven by multiple parties simultaneously.
2. Since #1 doesn't happen, the US should do it and typically is the one to do it. People line-up and follow the big-kid, even while complaining that he's overbearing. The cruel irony though is that small actions such as Libya or Rwanda don't actually require the US to be the leader. Any major world power could have picked-up the UN flag and carried it into those fights*. For that reason, I consider criticism of the US by other westerners on that basis hypocritical, unfair and really just plain incorrect.

*Point of clarification: It is my understanding that we played a larger role in Libya than Obama wanted because our military has specialized operations capabilities others do not. But this just means:
1. Other countries would carry more risk if we weren't involved. France, who I undertand did want to lead the effort, could have done it, they just would have had to put their pilots in harms way to do it.
2. The lack of capabilities is a long-term implication of the same choice. It becomes a circular/self-reinforcing proposition: If a country like France chooses to step up and be a leader, they'll have to build their military back up in order to do it effectively.

 

[russ_watters]

A little more: The US objection is based on opposition to what we see as a tyranny of the majority. In response, we are trying to take the role of benevolent dictator.

An, democracy doesn't mean that you have to stop trying to get your way once the majority rules. The US can use whatever legal means is available to continue to fight. And illegal ones in limited cases as well. It is common in the US, for example for people to deliberately break a law to force a court challenge...

...Which by the way is also somethimg the UN lacks, which is part of the problem here: no independent judicial oversight and limited separation of powers.

 

[Evo]

Since this thread cannot remain on topic, it is closed.