Effort to get us all on the same page (balloon analogy)

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To foster an engaging cosmology forum, participants should balance mental freedom with a foundational understanding of the Lambda-cold-dark-matter (LCDM) model. The discussion emphasizes the importance of the balloon analogy, which helps visualize the expansion of the universe and the relationship between galaxies, redshift, and distance. It aims to clarify misconceptions surrounding the analogy, particularly regarding the nature of space and the movement of galaxies relative to the cosmic microwave background (CMB). Participants are encouraged to explore intuitive concepts without heavy reliance on mathematical jargon or abbreviations. Ultimately, a shared understanding of these foundational ideas will enhance discussions and learning in the forum.
  • #481
megacal said:
This is the part I have most difficulty comprehending or visualizing now...
things farther from each other receding faster from each other than things closer together

Here is a map of "nearby" galaxies:

http://www.sdss.org/includes/sideimages/sdss_pie2.html

Print it out, then put it through a photocopier set to 110%, that's roughly 1.4 billion years worth of expansion. Now choose any pair of galaxies in the original map and measure how far apart they are. Find the same pair on the larger map and measure. You should find the separation has increased by 10% of course.

Two galaxies 10mm apart will now be 11mm apart so if we are one, the other has moved 1mm in 1.4 billion years.

Two galaxies 20mm apart will now be 22mm apart so if we are one, the other has moved 2mm in 1.4 billion years, and that is twice the speed of the previous example.
 
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  • #482
Two galaxies 20mm apart will now be 22mm apart so if we are one, the other has moved 2mm in 1.4 billion years, and that is twice the speed of the previous example.

Thanks, that makes sense. :smile:
 
  • #483
wolram said:
To my mind the balloon analogy is a nuisance, gallaxies ect are not stuck to a surface, once one has read about the BA it takes some getting rid of.

My comments as an interested layman (who has not yet read the entirety of this thread):
I find the balloon analogy as very helpful in explaining how objects expanding at the speed of sound can be receding at apparently greater "speeds" because of the expansion of the space they are traveling on. But it has another major problem. To a layman, a balloon is a 3D object, not a flat surface. So it inevitably provokes the question of where the center of the expanding balloon is (read where the big bang was physically located).

I know there is no radius to this mythical balloon and that it should only be viewed as a surface analogy, but as a visualization tool used to explain things to a layman I feel it would be helpful to emphasize this peculiarity *at the very onset* before going much further. Otherwise it is normal to assume the balloon has a center.

FWIW, I only offer this as a teaching comment to explain (one of many errors) a non physicist might make when visualizing the balloon analogy.
 
  • #484
somebodyelse said:
I know there is no radius to this mythical balloon and that it should only be viewed as a surface analogy, but as a visualization tool used to explain things to a layman I feel it would be helpful to emphasize this peculiarity *at the very onset* before going much further. Otherwise it is normal to assume the balloon has a center.
I found two ways to soften the peculiarity, depending on the skill of the layman. One is to view the balloon as "infinitely large", making whatever the surface dweller can observe to appear spatially flat (which is more or less the status of our universe).

The other one is to emphasize that if the universe is closed (positively curved), there may be a "center" in an extra hyper-spherical dimension. The balloon analogy is just dropping one of the normal spatial dimensions...
 
  • #485
It appears that there are a lot of very interesting models for the 'shape' or 'topological' forms of the universe:
Riemann, twistor (Penrose), mobius, etc.
My take is below...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_flow
Although, and I think, we will all have a big surprise, when it is finally resolved!
 
  • #487
It might help get us all "on the same page" if we could share in common some intuitive understanding of the basic equation used in Cosmology. This is called the Friedman equation or (when people list two equations) the first Friedman equation. (His name is spelled variously, often with another final n, as Friedmann.)

I've been thinking about what might be the best way to provide a layman's intuitive understanding of the equation (in a simplified case where overall spatial curvature is negligible and matter is dispersed enough so overall average pressure is negligible as well.)

Since the Friedman equation is a radically simplified version of the Einstein GR equation, getting some intuition about it could be a good way to get a grasp of the GR equation it is derived from.

Here's a thread where I've been working on some explanations relating to this:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=760988
Here's the post in that thread that has a good many of the essentials:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=4793450#post4793450

It might be useful to summarize it here.
 
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  • #488
It's said that the Einstein GR equation relates change in geometry (on the left) to matter (on the right)--matter tells geometry how to curve, geometry tells matter how to flow. Let's try to be more specific. How are the two measured--in what units?--and what constant converts between the two sorts of quantities?

Just as frequency and fractional growth rate are commonly measured in units of reciprocal time (e.g. some number per second or per year) so a common measure of curvature is reciprocal area--some number over a unit length squared--some number over a unit area.

Common measures of matter are pressure and energy density. It happens that if you multiply a curvature by a FORCE you get a pressure. In metric terms: "per square meter" (curvature) multiplied by "Newton" (force) gives "Newton per square meter" which is the metric unit of pressure called the "pascal". It is also equivalent to the metric unit of energy density "joules per cubic meter". You just have to multiply N/m2 by meter in both numerator and denominator to get Nm/m3, which is "joules per cubic meter".

So it's not too surprising that the central constant in the Einstein GR equation is a FORCE, namely c4/8πG. You can think of it as multiplying a 4x4 array of curvatures, to give a 4x4 array of pressures and energy densities. Or reciprocally as dividing each pressure or density in the array describing matter, to give an array of curvatures describing what geometry is doing around that particular point in space and time. In the iconic form of GR equation the force appears as its RECIPROCAL, one over the force, namely 8πG/c4:
G_{\mu\nu} + \Lambda g_{\mu\nu} = {8\pi G \over c^4} T_{\mu\nu}In fact the central constant 8πG/c4 is the reciprocal of an actual intrinsic quantity of force that is, so to speak, built into nature. This universal constant force is what relates MATTER (expressed by the T** tensor on the right) to the dynamically responding GEOMETRY, expressed by G** the so called "Einstein tensor". If you want to know the size (in quarter pound metric force units) of that innate force woven into the fabric of existence just paste this into google:
c^4/(8pi G)
You should get some large number of Newtons.
The Lambda in the GR equation is a curvature constant, a reciprocal area. Multiplying it by the metric tensor little g** gives again an array of curvatures, ready to add to G**.
The Friedman equation derives from the GR equation and is a much-simplified form of it. Let's define Φ = 3c2/(8πG). It is LIKE the central force constant in the GR equation, but with a factor of 3 thrown in, and missing a factor of c2. The reciprocal of this force-like quantity, 1/Φ = 8πG/3c2, is the central constant in the Friedman equation:
H(t)^2 - H_\infty^2 = {1 \over \Phi} \rho (t)This is what the equation boils down to in the case where overall spatial curvature and average pressure are negligible. Comparing the two equations shows that they have analogous parts.
On the right, instead of the full T** tensor (essentially a 4x4 matrix varying over space and time, describing the concentrations of energy and momentum that matter represents) we just have the one density quantity rho of t varying over time: the average energy density ρ(t).
On the left, instead of the Einstein G** tensor (basically a 4x4 matrix expressing the changes in geometry felt by probing in various spacetime directions), all we have is the square of a simple expansion rate H(t), and a constant squared expansion rate term.
And the Lambda term in the original GR equation is reflected in what is written here as H squared. In fact H2 = Λc2/3, so it is an almost verbatim transcription of the Lambda term in the original.

So in the Friedman equation, instead of 4x4 arrays of geometric and matter quantities we just have one quantity. On the left it is a SQUARED GROWTH RATE---not reciprocal length squared but pretty close, reciprocal time squared. The H quantities are fractional growth rates---some number per unit time (per second, per year, per million years). The force-like constant is just what we need to multiply the squared growth rates by to get an energy density. Or reciprocally, it is what we need to divide the density by, on the right, to get a squared growth rate.
 
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  • #489
Part of the idea here is to argue for everybody having at least a certain level of knowledge of basic cosmic model parameters---including a notion of what the current and longterm Hubble radii are estimated to be.
Someone, having heard the earlier WMAP estimates and recalling those, might say R(now)=14.0 Gly and R = 16.5 Gly. On the other hand another person, who's been using Jorrie's calculator (where Planck estimates are the default), might say R(now) = 14.4 Gly and R = 17.3 Gly. The exact figures, as long as they're reasonably recent, are not critical. Future missions may revise them. In examples here, I will use the Planck mission 14.4 and 17.3 Gly. Hopefully any reader of this thread will be using those or will have his or her own figures in mind.

As an example, those two Hubble radius tell me that the present and future values of the Hubble growth rate are
H(now) = 1/14400 per My = 1/14400 per million years, and
H = 1/17300 per My.
Those are the fractional growth rates of the distance between two unmoving points. Picture two points painted on an expanding balloon surface (with all existence concentrated on that 2D surface). They are not moving in any direction that exists in their universe. They are not going anywhere, the distance between them is simply increasing..

Since I have H2(now) and H2, the Friedman equation tells me the present-day density of matter in space
ρ(now) = Φ(H2(now) - H2) = 3c^2/(8pi G)*(1/14400^2 - 1/17300^2) per (million years)^2 = 0.239 nanopascal

I highlighted what you would paste into google to get it to do the calculation.
 
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  • #490
Here's another example. Suppose you want to know the rate distances were growing at a time in the past when distances (between unmoving points) were HALF what they are today. Well then volumes were 1/8 of present size and the matter density then ρ(then) = 8*0.239 nanopascal.

We can use Friedman equation again

H(then)2 = H2 + (1/Φ)8*0.239 nanopascal

H(then) = (1/17300^2 per (million years)^2 + 8*pi*G/(3c^2)*8*0.239 nanopascal)^0.5

I paste that in, and it tells me H(then) = 3.9 x 10-18 Hz
in other words a number per second. But I want a number per million years so I multiply the answer by a million years:
(1/17300^2 per (million years)^2 + 8*pi*G/(3c^2)*8*0.239 nanopascal)^0.5*million years
and it tells me H(then) = 0.000123231935 per million years
So I tell it 1/0.000123231935 and it says 8115
The answer therefore is H(then) = 1/8115 per million years. The Hubble growth rate, which is now 1/144% per million years WAS back then 1/81% per million years.
And the Hubble radius, which is now 14.4 Gly, was 8.1 Gly.
 
  • #491
marcus said:
...
H(then) = (1/17300^2 per (million years)^2 + 8*pi*G/(3c^2)*8*0.239 nanopascal)^0.5
I paste that in, and it tells me H(then) = 3.9 x 10-18 Hz
in other words a number per second. But I want a number per million years so I multiply the answer by a million years:
(1/17300^2 per (million years)^2 + 8*pi*G/(3c^2)*8*0.239 nanopascal)^0.5*million years
and it tells me H(then) = 0.000123231935 per million years
So I tell it 1/0.000123231935 and it says 8115
The answer therefore is H(then) = 1/8115 per million years. The Hubble growth rate, which is now 1/144% per million years WAS back then 1/81% per million years.
And the Hubble radius, which is now 14.4 Gly, was 8.1 Gly.

I know you are fond of the % per million years growth rate. My question is, with everyone around here being used to think billions of years (Gy) in large scale cosmology, why not stick to it. One then uses the Hubble radii as we talk about them, i.e. your paragraph "paraphrased":

"H(then) = (1/17.3^2 per (billion years)^2 + 8*pi*G/(3c^2)*8*0.239 nanopascal)^0.5
I paste that in, and it tells me H(then) = 3.9 x 10-18 Hz,
in other words a number per second. But I want a number per billion years so I multiply the answer by a billion years:
(1/17.3^2 per (billion years)^2 + 8*pi*G/(3c^2)*8*0.239 nanopascal)^0.5*(billion years)
and it tells me H(then) = 0.123231935 per billion years
So I tell it 1/0.123231935 and it says 81.15
The answer therefore is H(then) = 1/81.15 per billion years. The Hubble growth rate, which is now 1/14.4 per billion years WAS back then 1/81.15 per billion years.
"

I think this may avoid any confusion about the units used.
 
  • #492
Hi Jorrie, thanks for the comment! Please keep me apprised of other things you notice. I'll think about switching to a coarser timescale and play around with it, but I probably won't shift over at least right away at this point. Very used to the 1/144 % per million year format, now. It has become a habit. But as you show it wouldn't be difficult to edit over to the coarser timescale format--just by moving the decimal point at strategic places. I'll try a kind of compromise edit in this post to see how it goes (but am not promising to shift permanently.)

marcus said:
Here's another example. Suppose you want to know the rate distances were growing at a time in the past when distances (between unmoving points) were HALF what they are today. Well then volumes were 1/8 of present size and the matter density then ρ(then) = 8*0.239 nanopascal.

We can use Friedman equation again

H(then)2 = H2 + (1/Φ)8*0.239 nanopascal

H(then) = (1/17300^2 per (million years)^2 + 8*pi*G/(3c^2)*8*0.239 nanopascal)^0.5

I paste that in, and it tells me H(then) = 3.9 x 10-18 Hz


in other words a number per second. But I want a number per billion years so I multiply the answer by a billion years. That means I paste in:
(1/17300^2 per (million years)^2 + 8*pi*G/(3c^2)*8*0.239 nanopascal)^0.5 * billion years
and it tells me H(then) = 0.12323... per billion years
Now 0.123… is about one eighth. Actually a bit less than 1/8, more like 1/8.1
The answer therefore is H(then) = 1/8.1 per billion years, and taking it in smaller steps that is 1/81 of a percent growth per million years.
The Hubble growth rate, which is now 1/144% per million years WAS back then 1/81% per million years.
And the Hubble radius, which is now 14.4 Gly, was 8.1 Gly.

Actually I like that kind of hybrid explanation. Let's try "take two" of the hybrid:

in other words a number per second. I want to know the Hubble time back then in billion years so I multiply the answer by a billion years. That means I paste in:(1/17300^2 per (million years)^2 + 8*pi*G/(3c^2)*8*0.239 nanopascal)^0.5 * billion years
and it tells me H(then) = 0.12323... per billion years
That 0.123… is about one eighth--actually a bit less than 1/8, more like 1/8.1
So the Hubble time back then was 1/H(then) = 8.1 billion years. As we know from regularly converting Hubble times and Hubble radii to percentage growth rates, this corresponds to H(then) being a distance growth rate of 1/81 of a percent per million years.
The Hubble growth rate H(t), which is now 1/144% per million years was 1/81% per million years, back then, and the Hubble radius, which is now 14.4 Gly, was 8.1 Gly.


You might be right. It might be better to completely switch over to billion years.
Then one gets fractions with a decimal point in the denominator: e.g. 1/14.4
and 1/17.3 but and one loses touch with the language of percentage growth rates. The percentages would be
1/0.144 percent per billion years and 1/0.173 % per billion years.
But to compensate, some calculations like this one would be considerably trimmer! We can keep this open and continue considering it.
 
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  • #493
The first occurrence of the cosmological constant Lambda in the GR equation, around 1920 (actually as early as 1917), is of interest in this connection. A source:
Einstein, A. 1917. Kosmologischege Betrachtungen zur allgemeinen Relativitätstheorie. Sitzungsb. König. Preuss. Akad. 142-152, reprinted and translated in The Principle of Relativity (Dover, 1952) 175-188
This recent historical paper quotes a recently translated original source that is later (1931):
http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.0132

I found the first occurrence of Lambda (cosmological constant) I know of in a 1917 paper Cosmological Considerations on the General Theory of Relativity translated in the Dover book on page 179, equations 2 and 3.
the book is available online at Internet Archive (archive.org) so it doesn't require a trip to the library.
 
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  • #494
The issue of entropy gets raised from time to time in connection with bounce cosmologies. People who think of entropy as an ABSOLUTE physical quantitity, rather than an observer-dependent one, occasionally ask how it apparently got to be so low at the start of expansion (if the start was a rebound from prior contracting phase.) I responded in the context of separate discussion so, for convenience, I'll save the reply here where I can refer to it easily.

If you look at how entropy is defined you see it is observer-dependent because it depends on the observer's coarse-graining---the macrovariable versus microvariable distinction. Entropy is the logarithm of the number of microstates (based on degrees of freedom irrelevant to the observer) comprising one grand macrostate (based on d.o.f that he actually interacts with and which affect him).

Any observer has a coarse-graining map corresponding to the lumping together of microstates into macrostates (consolidating all those which don't make any difference to the observer). Entropy measures the "size" in the particular macrostate we're in. The amount of information in it, that we ignore.

There's a group of people who think of entropy as absolute, who don't think that when you talk about it you have to specify a coarse-graining map. It is difficult for them to accept bounce cosmology because it looks to them as if "the entropy" (an absolute quantity) was reset to zero at the bounce. And there are other people who don't have that problem.

If you think of entropy as defined for a particular coarse-graining, then you don't encounter that mental obstacle. There is a pre-bounce guy and according to his coarsegraining the entropy increases astronomically as you go into the bounce, and it never thereafter declines! Because everything post-bounce is irrelevant to him, like it was inside the horizon of a black hole, the whole universe.
The post-bounce guy has a DIFFERENT coarsegraining and he sees the entropy initially low, everything about the bounce matters to him, is of vital importance, affects him thru variables he interacts with. Then as the U expands and diversifies regions of phase space become indifferent and irrelevant to him and entropy (for the post-bounce guy) increases.

The second law holds for any particular guy's entropy---defined based on his coarse-graining of the world.

This has been pointed out by various people. I think probably it would have come up in your Abhay&Ivan interview documentary video. As I recall Thanu Padmanabhan stated it clearly. Entropy is observer-dependent, or words to that effect. I've lost track of all the people who have made that point. Recently it came up here:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1407.3384
Why do we remember the past and not the future? The 'time oriented coarse graining' hypothesis
Carlo Rovelli
(Submitted on 12 Jul 2014)
Phenomenological arrows of time can be traced to a past low-entropy state. Does this imply the universe was in an improbable state in the past? I suggest a different possibility: past low-entropy depends on the coarse-graining implicit in our definition of entropy. This, in turn depends on our physical coupling to the rest of the world.

Some more reading, if curious:
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9901033
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0310022
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0410168

To give a bit of the flavor I'll quote a passage from Don Marolf's 2004 paper

==quote http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0410168 from conclusions==
the realization that observers remaining outside a black hole associate a different (and, at least in interesting cases, smaller) flux of entropy across the horizon with a given physical process than do observers who themselves cross the horizon during the process. In particular, this second mechanism was explored using both analytic and numerical techniques in a simple toy model. We note that similar effects have been reported35 for calculations involving quantum teleportation experiments in non-inertial frames. Our observations are also in accord with general remarks36,37 that, in analogy with energy, entropy should be a subtle concept in General Relativity.
We have concentrated here on this new observer-dependence in the concept of entropy
. It is tempting to speculate that this observation will have further interesting implications for the thermodynamics of black holes. For example, the point here that the two classes of observers assign different values to the entropy flux across the horizon seems to be in tune with the point of view (see, e.g., Refs. 38,39,40,41,42) that the Bekenstein-Hawking entropy of a black hole does not count the number of black hole microstates, but rather refers to some property of these states relative to observers who…
==endquote==
For context see: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=4810929#post4810929
 
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  • #495
I got a PM letter yesterday from one of our members asking basic questions about the declining Hubble expansion rate, the increasing growth *speed* of the scale factor and related matters, so decided to respond here in case it could be useful for anybody else.
In words: H(t) is a fractional growth rate, conveniently expressed as percentage growth per million years, rate is different from *speed*. The speed a distance grows is proportional to its size, larger distances grow faster.
So the percentage RATE can be DECLINING even though if you watch a particular distance it's growth SPEED can be increasing.
Like if you have a savings account at the bank, the percent INTEREST on it can be constant or even slowly declining and yet, because your principal is growing your savings can still be increasing by a greater amount each year, in gross dollar terms.

I think it's good to look at a concrete example. A purely verbal description like the above leaves something missing. Let's look at some numbers, using Jorrie's Lightcone calculator:
This table runs from year 67 million, when distances were 1/40 their present size, out to year 28.6 billion when distances will be 2.5 times their present size. The present is year 13.787 billion where you see scale factor a(t) = 1 and its reciprocal S(t) = 1 indicating distances are exactly their present size.
The way to read the percentage growth rate is to mentally multiply the R column number by TEN and take ONE OVER THAT. So in year 67 million, the growth rate was one percent per million years
Is that clear? You multiply 0.1 by ten and get 1, and one over one is one.

I would advise getting used to reading the R column that way. Another example: in year 135 million distances were growing 1/2 percent per million years , you take 0.2, multiply by ten to get 2 and take one over two to get 1/2.

You can see from the table that at present, year 13.787 billion, distances are growing 1/144 percent per million years. The percentage rate has come down a lot over time and it is continuing to decline towards a limit of 1/173 %. The table extends into the future far enough to show it getting down to 1/171 %, which is getting close to where it is expected to end up.

{\scriptsize\begin{array}{|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|} \hline a=1/S&S&T (Gy)&R (Gly)&a'R_{0} (c) \\ \hline 0.025&40.000&0.067&0.1&3.53\\ \hline 0.031&31.764&0.096&0.1&3.14\\ \hline 0.040&25.223&0.135&0.2&2.79\\ \hline 0.050&20.030&0.192&0.3&2.49\\ \hline 0.063&15.905&0.271&0.4&2.22\\ \hline 0.079&12.630&0.384&0.6&1.97\\ \hline 0.100&10.030&0.543&0.8&1.76\\ \hline 0.126&7.965&0.768&1.2&1.57\\ \hline 0.158&6.325&1.085&1.6&1.40\\ \hline 0.199&5.022&1.531&2.3&1.25\\ \hline 0.251&3.988&2.159&3.2&1.13\\ \hline 0.316&3.167&3.035&4.5&1.02\\ \hline 0.398&2.515&4.243&6.1&0.94\\ \hline 0.501&1.997&5.876&8.1&0.89\\ \hline 0.631&1.586&8.009&10.4&0.87\\ \hline 0.794&1.259&10.665&12.6&0.91\\ \hline 1.000&1.000&13.787&14.4&1.00\\ \hline 1.259&0.794&17.262&15.6&1.16\\ \hline 1.495&0.669&20.000&16.3&1.32\\ \hline 1.774&0.564&22.823&16.7&1.53\\ \hline 2.106&0.475&25.701&16.9&1.79\\ \hline 2.500&0.400&28.613&17.1&2.11\\ \hline \end{array}}

This table is an implementation of the FRIEDMANN EQUATION as a table of numbers instead of as an equation. It's good to study the equation and understand it, but I think it also helps to mull over the actual numbers of the history of the universe which the equation generates when you plug in the observed values of the parameters and run it.

The rightmost column is the growth *SPEED* of a chosen sample distance whose present size is 14.4 billion light years. You can see it starts out (way back in year 67 million) at 1/40 of its present size and growing at 3.53 times the speed of light.
And that speed declines until around year 8 billion.
And then it starts to increase.
And by now, in year 13.787 billion, it is increasing at exactly the speed of light.
So ever since year 8 billion it has been, in a manner of speaking, "accelerating".
But the word is not quite apt. Distance growth is not like ordinary motion. Nobody GETS anywhere by it, everything just becomes farther apart. So the word "accelerating" is just slightly misleading and can give a false mental image. It just means that the speed of distance growth is increasing.
Although of course as we noted earlier the percentage RATE of distance growth is declining.
 
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  • #496
marcus said:
I said I would try to avoid abbreviations, but I need another one: CMB for cosmic microwave background.

The balloon analogy teaches various things, but sometimes you have to concentrate in order to learn them.

One thing it teaches is what it means to be not moving with respect to CMB.

the balloon is a spherical surface and as it gradually expands a point that always stays at the same longitude and latitude is stationary with respect to CMB.

Distances between stationary points can increase, and in fact they do. They increase at a regular percentage rate (larger distances increase more). In our 3D reality this is called Hubble Law. It is about distances between points which are at rest wrt CMB.

In our 3D reality you know you are at rest wrt CMB if you point your antenna in all directions and get roughly the same temperature or peak wavelength. There is no doppler hotspot or coldspot in the CMB sky. That means you are not moving with respect to the universe.

In cosmology being at rest is a very fundamental idea, we had it even before the 1960s when the CMB was discovered. Then it was defined as being at rest with respect to the process of expansion---you could tell you were at rest with respect to the universe if the expansion around you was approximately the same in all directions---not faster one one side of the sky and slower on the other, but balanced. It is the same idea but now we use the CMB to define it because it is much more accurate. Sun and planets are traveling about 380 km/s with respect to CMB in a direction marked by the constellation Leo in the sky. It is not very fast but astronomical observations sometimes need to be corrected for that motion so as to correspond to what an observer at CMB rest would see.

Now let's take another look at the balloon and see what else it can tell us.

The CMB is electromagnetic radiation and all non-accelerating reference frames are non-moving to the observer. Accordingly, how can a non-accelerating observer not be at rest with respect to the CMB? All CMB will be moving at C to every observer.
 
  • #497
At rest wrt CMB MEANS temperature essentially the same in all directions.

Solar system we know is not at rest, for reason given in what you quote. There is a hot spot in constellation Leo. And a cold spot in the opposite direction.
What you quoted says 380 but a better figure is the solar system is moving about 370 km/s in the Leo direction, relative to the soup of ancient light. A recent report says 369 km/s
That is about 0.123 of a percent of the speed of light.
Therefore the temperature in that direction in the sky is 0.123 of a percent WARMER than the average CMB sky temperature. Something like 0.003 kelvin warmer than the average 2.725 kelvin

Another way to say observer "at rest" is to say ISOTROPIC observer. Isotropic means "universe looks the same in all directions" In particular the CMB temperature is the same in all directions.

An observer riding with the solar system is not an isotropic observer because there is a measurable temperature "dipole", a hotspot coldspot axis.

Hubble already discovered this motion, or dipole, before the CMB was known. The galaxies in the Leo direction are receding on average a LITTLE SLOWER than the overall Hubble rule predicts. This is because the solar system is not at rest wrt universal expansion process. And galaxies in the opposite direction are receding a little faster .

Discovering the CMB and the temperature hotspot only made this more accurate, but it was already known that the universe has a criterion of rest.

It does not depend on the electromagnetic field, it depends on the approximately uniform distribution of the ancient matter, the primordial gas.
 
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  • #498
A good recent report is
http://arxiv.org/abs/0803.0732
Five-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Data Processing, Sky Maps, and Basic Results
G. Hinshaw, J. L. Weiland, R. S. Hill, N. Odegard, D. Larson, C. L. Bennett, J. Dunkley, B. Gold, M. R. Greason, N. Jarosik, E. Komatsu, M. R. Nolta, L. Page, D. N. Spergel, E. Wollack, M. Halpern, A. Kogut, M. Limon, S. S. Meyer, G. S. Tucker, E. L. Wright
(Submitted on 5 Mar 2008 (v1), last revised 17 Oct 2008 (this version, v2))
We present new full-sky temperature and polarization maps in five frequency bands from 23 to 94 GHz, based on data from the first five years of the WMAP sky survey. The five-year maps incorporate several improvements in data processing made possible by the additional years of data and by a more complete analysis of the ...
==quote==
samples from both methods to produce the conservative estimate shown in the bottom row. This approach, which enlarges the uncertainty to emcompass both estimates, gives

(d, l, b) = (3.355 ± 0.008 mK, 263.99◦ ± 0.14◦, 48.26◦ ± 0.03◦), (1)

where the amplitude estimate includes the 0.2% absolute calibration uncertainty. Given the CMB monopole temperature of 2.725 K (Mather et al. 1999), this amplitude implies a Solar System peculiar velocity of 369.0 ± 0.9 km s−1 with respect to the CMB rest frame.
==endquote==

See also this one:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5087
Planck 2013 results. XXVII. Doppler boosting of the CMB: Eppur si muove
Planck Collaboration: N. Aghanim, C. Armitage-Caplan, M. Arnaud, M. Ashdown, F. Atrio-Barandela, J. Aumont, A. J. Banday, R. B. Barreiro, J. G. Bartlett, K. Benabed, A. Benoit-Lévy, J.-P. Bernard, M. Bersanelli, P. Bielewicz, J. Bobin, J. J. Bock, J. R. Bond, J. Borrill, F. R. Bouchet, M. Bridges, C. Burigana, R. C. Butler, J.-F. Cardoso, A. Catalano, A. Challinor, A. Chamballu, L.-Y Chiang, H. C. Chiang, P. R. Christensen, D. L. Clements, L. P. L. Colombo, F. Couchot, B. P. Crill, F. Cuttaia, L. Danese, R. D. Davies, R. J. Davis, P. de Bernardis, A. de Rosa, G. de Zotti, J. Delabrouille, J. M. Diego, S. Donzelli, O. Doré, X. Dupac, G. Efstathiou, T. A. Enßlin, H. K. Eriksen, F. Finelli, O. Forni, M. Frailis, E. Franceschi, S. Galeotta, K. Ganga, M. Giard, G. Giardino, J. González-Nuevo, v1), last revised 10 Nov 2014 (this version, v2))
Our velocity relative to the rest frame of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) generates a dipole temperature anisotropy on the sky which has been well measured for more than 30 years, and has an accepted amplitude of v/c = 0.00123, or v = 369km/s. In addition to this signal generated by Doppler boosting of the CMB monopole, our motion also modulates and aberrates the CMB...
...gnificant confirmation of the expected velocity.
 
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  • #499
marcus said:
At rest wrt CMB MEANS temperature essentially the same in all directions.

Solar system we know is not at rest, for reason given in what you quote. There is a hot spot in constellation Leo. And a cold spot in the opposite direction.
What you quoted says 380 but a better figure is the solar system is moving about 370 km/s in the Leo direction, relative to the soup of ancient light. A recent report says 369 km/s
That is about 0.123 of a percent of the speed of light.
Therefore the temperature in that direction in the sky is 0.123 of a percent WARMER than the average CMB sky temperature. Something like 0.003 kelvin warmer than the average 2.725 kelvin

Another way to say observer "at rest" is to say ISOTROPIC observer. Isotropic means "universe looks the same in all directions" In particular the CMB temperature is the same in all directions.

An observer riding with the solar system is not an isotropic observer because there is a measurable temperature "dipole", a hotspot coldspot axis.

Hubble already discovered this motion, or dipole, before the CMB was known. The galaxies in the Leo direction are receding on average a LITTLE SLOWER than the overall Hubble rule predicts. This is because the solar system is not at rest wrt universal expansion process. And galaxies in the opposite direction are receding a little faster .

Discovering the CMB and the temperature hotspot only made this more accurate, but it was already known that the universe has a criterion of rest.

It does not depend on the electromagnetic field, it depends on the approximately uniform distribution of the ancient matter, the primordial gas.


What concerns me here is that it sounds suspicously like you are creating a preferred reference frame forhe Universe. It may be that there are differences in temperature of the microwave background and that the objects in the Universe have relative velocity to each other, I don't believe we can say that the CMB has some ultimate zero velocity. At best, I think we can say there is relative velocity between the objects that emitted the CMB 14 billion years ago and us.
 
  • #500
the U represents a particular solution of GR. In the mother theory (GR) there is no preferred ref frame. But individual solutions to GR equation can have preferred frame specific to that solution.
So in cosmology we have a preferred frame.

It depends on initial conditions---eg a particular configuration of initial matter. even.

The solution is basically the Friedmann solution, the Friedmann metric. It has a preferred time called universe time or Friedmann time.

AFAIK everybody who does cosmology knows there is a preferred time, and a criterion of rest with respect to the universe (aka wrt CMB).

If you don't believe me, there is nothing I can say. This is basic.
 
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  • #501
marcus said:
the U represents a particular solution of GR. In the mother theory (GR) there is no preferred ref frame. But individual solutions to GR equation can have preferred frame specific to that solution.
So in cosmology we have a preferred frame.

Is this preferred frame based upon an analytical solution to Einsteins's equations that is solved for high field assymetric conditions? However, I guess as long as you guys don't posit some type of aether, I shouldn't be too concerned.
 
  • #502
I think it is also important to emphasise that the "preferred frame" isn't a frame in the usual special relativity sense, two objects, both at rest with respect to the CMB will not be at rest with respect to each other as Marcus said. Another way to look at it is that today's galaxies formed out of the gas that emitted the CMB so really we are just measuring the speed of individual items relative the average speed of all those in the neighbourhood.
 
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Likes Drakkith
  • #503
Practice with a HANDS-ON approach to cosmology might help get us all on the same page. I'd like to try it with some volunteers who'd be willing to work some concrete exercises (with self-calculating formulas) and see how much it improved their comprehension.
The thought here is that purely verbal explanations tend to lead to confusion. As can too much reliance on equations with abstract symbols.

It's possible to put the equations to work in simple calculations and that can raise one's level of understanding quite a lot.

Anyway comments and reactions are very welcome. What I'm thinking of doing is carry this effort to get us on the same page, cosmology-wise, a step beyond the balloon analogy and the CMB rest frame, and see how it goes.
 
  • #504
I'd be willing to give it a go.
 
  • #505
Great! I hope two or three others will join the project. I'd like us to try using zeit (17.3 billion years) as a time unit and lightzeit (17.3 billion lightyears) for distance. It makes the formulas very simple, so they can be effectively self-calculating.
The present age is 0.8 zeit (more precisely 0.797 but 0.8 is close enough).

Fact 1 is at any time t the size of distances that are expanding at the speed of light is tanh(1.5t).

The answer comes out in lightzeits and it's especially convenient because google calculator knows the function "tanh". So you can say what size of distance is growing at speed c right now today. You just type in tanh(1.5*0.8) and press "enter", the * is for multiplication. Let me know if you have any trouble with google.

Exercise 1.1 what size distance WILL be growing at the speed of light in the future 0.1 zeit from now, i.e. when the age t = 0.9.
Exercise 1.2 what size distances WERE expanding at speed c in the past, 0.1 zeit ago, i.e at age t = 0.7.

Drakkith please let me know if this is grossly too simple or too hard. I have very little notion of what the right level is to start with. If this is OK, the focus at first will be on simple hands-on calculation of the universe, getting actual numbers so it is on more than just a verbal level.
 
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  • #506
marcus said:
Exercise 1.1 what size distance WILL be growing at the speed of light 0.1 zeit from now in the future, i.e. when the age t = 0.9.
Exercise 1.2 what size distances WERE expanding at speed c

1.1: 0.87 lightzeit, or 15.1 billion light years.

1.2: 0.78 lightzeit.
(Note that if you use another calculator than google, which I did, you have to use radians, not degrees)
 
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  • #507
Yay! BTW I got called away from computer while I was typing in Exercise 1.2, and only finished it later.
 
  • #508
marcus said:
Yay! BTW I got called away from computer while I was typing in Exercise 1.2, and only finished it later.

I've corrected my post.
 
  • #509
marcus said:
Drakkith please let me know if this is grossly too simple or too hard. I have very little notion of what the right level is to start with. If this is OK, the focus at first will be on simple hands-on calculation of the universe, getting actual numbers so it is on more than just a verbal level

I think it's pretty simple. You literally just plug in numbers or type it into google.
 
  • #510
I see it's too elementary, I'll go to something a bit more complicated in a few minutes.

But what we just did was essentially equivalent to Hubble's law v(t) = H(t)D(t)
because the speed a distance is growing is proportional to its size.

So if you know what size is growing at c, and you have another distance that is HALF that then you know it is growing at half c.

In our units we can say H(t) = 1/tanh(1.5*t) and we can write Hubble law
v(t) = D(t)/tanh(1.5*t)

Exercise 1.3 So thinking back to t = 0.234, how fast was a distance growing that was size 0.337 lightzeit?
 

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