News Electric vehicles to pay for detroit bailout?

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The discussion centers on concerns about the allocation of a $25 billion fund intended for advanced transportation technology, with calls to ensure it doesn't subsidize Detroit's corporate excesses. Participants express skepticism about the viability of the Big Three automakers, suggesting they should face consequences for past mismanagement rather than receive bailouts. The conversation highlights the importance of competition in the automotive market, advocating for the development of affordable electric vehicles like the Chevy Volt over luxury models like the Tesla. There is also a push for the government to support innovative companies focused on sustainable transportation solutions instead of bailing out traditional automakers. Overall, the sentiment is that the automotive industry needs to adapt to changing market demands without relying on government handouts.
  • #201
DrClapeyron said:
..Sounds like the knee jerk reaction of all knee jerk reactions or a frustrated employee of a toy company...

What does?
 
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  • #202
Came across this article that stands out from the usual daily electric car press. Not only does it seek out the opinion of the more knowledgeable EV players, both critic and proponent, but it also filtered their comments to the more crucial issues.
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ghosn-overruling-electric-engineers/382035/

Starting point for the article is Renault-Nissan's 100 mile range, pure EV plugin vehicle. Nissan is way out front on mass production of electric only vehicles, versus GMs plugin hybrid.

Carlos Ghosn said:
“The engineers will always tell you, ‘Wait a little more,’ and if you keep playing this game, you never launch any product,”

GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz (the 'Volt' guy) said:
their limited range puts all-electric vehicles years from widespread adoption.
“He’s rolling the dice,” Lutz, 77, says of Ghosn’s battery-only tack. “I don’t see it happening.”

Ghosn said:
says competitors are trailing Nissan in EVs, so naturally they’re going to play down the technology’s prospects.
“They cannot say, ‘we’re forecasting a 10 per cent market share for EVs and, by the way, we have nothing,’” he says.

Jerome York said:
“He’s a superb executive and works beyond belief,”
[but]
“If gas is $2 a gallon, this whole regulatory effort to promote EVs is going to be an ugly train wreck,”
Nissan battery lease plan said:
upending a century of automotive tradition by selling the Leaf without a battery. Instead, owners will rent the battery pack and pay for the miles used, like a cellular phone plan.

Drivers will recharge at home or at public plug-in stations, hitching to 3-foot-high (0.9-meter-high) metal posts. Or they may swap the batteries, like exchanging an empty propane tank for a full one. The price: about $120 a month in the US for battery rental and electricity.
Smaller countries:
Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Socrates said:
pledged to use them for 20 per cent of government transportation needs, build 1,350 public recharging stations by 2011 and give buyers tax credits and subsidies of more than ¤8,000 ($11,518).

“I’ve seen three oil shocks,” says Socrates, 52, whose country of 10.6 million has no commercial coal or oil production. “It’s not possible to live through these situations and do nothing.”

History
Until the early 1900s, when Texas gushed with cheap oil, electric cars were about as popular as gas models. A century later, as governments and consumers struggle to cut fossil fuel use, EVs may be coming back.
 
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  • #203
"Until the early 1900s, when Texas gushed with cheap oil, electric cars were about as popular as gas models. A century later, as governments and consumers struggle to cut fossil fuel use, EVs may be coming back."

EV's will not cut fossil fuel use, as more than 95% of all electricity is produced by fossil fuels. Having said that, in countries such as Germany and France, whose energy is mostly from other sources, EVs will have a positive impact.
 
  • #204
mugaliens said:
EV's will not cut fossil fuel use, as more than 95% of all electricity is produced by fossil fuels.

I think that depends on the EV owner.

Om's boat:
solarboat_2008April13_IMG_0064.JPG


Om's car:
pf%20solar%20powered%20car.jpg


May I remind you:

Sunlight will never cost $4/gallon.--PC
 
  • #205
mugaliens said:
EV's will not cut fossil fuel use, as more than 95% of all electricity is produced by fossil fuels.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/excel/figure_8_data.xls" , more like 70% and falling:
  • Coal: 46%
  • N. Gas: 23%
  • Nuclear 20%
  • All Renewables including hydro: 10%
+
EV's use less energy per mile driven.

mugaliens said:
Having said that, in countries such as Germany and France, whose energy is mostly from other sources,[...]
Again no, not mostly, not for all energy including transportation. Only France's electric energy generation is mostly from other sources, i.e. non fossil. Germany's fossil fuel fraction for electric generation is http://www.eoearth.org/image/Germelec.gif".
 
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  • #206
OmCheeto said:
I think that depends on the EV owner.

Om's boat:
solarboat_2008April13_IMG_0064.JPG


Sunlight will never cost $4/gallon.--PC

Om - Did you build the motor yourself? Conversion? If so I'm interested in a similar DIY project and am wondering how well the HP rating on the piston engine matches w/ the HP rating on the electric motor in regards to actual boat speed.

Edit: also - since LiIon is getting pretty cheap in some places, you might look at upgrading those lead acid bricks.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2513502&postcount=199
 
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  • #207
Someone said "the energy density of gas is like 50x that of lithium..", Yet I believe that fifty times the volume of the gas tank is not overly impossible to make room for. Consider that 20 gallons, well, 1 US gallon = 0.133680556 cubic foot x 20 = only 2.66 cubic feet!
Whoops, need to edit, x fifty = 133 cubic feet which is a bit hard to manage. what's the cube root of that?
So the reason why the LiFePo4 battery isn't being mass produced cheaply could be the same reason the big fossil fuel companies are smearing the GW debate
 
  • #208
fireofenergy said:
Someone said "the energy density of gas is like 50x that of lithium..", Yet I believe that fifty times the volume of the gas tank is not overly impossible to make room for...
The ~50x figure is for mass - energy density by mass. Gasoline has an energy density by volume ~17x better than Li Ion batteries.

The weight of 20 gallons of gasoline is ~120 lbs (6 lbs/gal), thus a Li Ion battery energy equivalent weighs 6000 lbs. An electric car will likely travel 3x further per unit of stored energy than a gasoline combustion engine based car, so perhaps 2000 lbs of battery is required to match the range allowed by that 20 gallons of gasoline. The mass produced electric-only cars coming out this year will carry ~500 lb batteries.
 
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  • #209
I'm sorry but I had to leave, didn't have enough time to figure it out, right, hence the quick edit. It seems that the mass to volume ratio would be in reverse (But I'm probably thinking about lead acid!) I think it's time for me to do some more searching...
 
  • #210
Ok, I'm going to try it again...
Gasoline verses lifepo4

Volumetric energy density = 220 Wh/liter.
Gasoline is 8,760Wh/liter.
Thus, I get 39 times less energy dense per volume.

Gravimetric energy density = 90 Wh/kg
Gasoline is 1,270Wh/kg
Thus, I get 14 times less energy dense by weight (cause it is heavier).

Gasoline weighs about 6.25 lbs or 2.8 kg per gallon, 20 gallons being 56 kg (123 lbs) and about 76 liters.
56 x 14 = 784 kg or 1,725 lbs, however, EV's are about 4x more efficient, thus about 430lbs of LiFePo4 should do the trick...

As for volume, 20 gallons = 2.68 cubic feet (about .075 cubic meter or 75 liters) times 39= almost 3 whole cubic meters divided by 4 (for EV efficiency) = .730 cubic meters of LiFePO4 needed to compete perfectly with gas which is almost 26 cubic feet. This seems impractical (after all!) unless the whole floorboard consisted of just over 6 inches of lifepo4 (or the whole trunk). I would prefer about half the range in exchange for less bulkyness (and less protective "cage" which should also add to weight and volume).

While I'm "at it", should'nt we figure out how much would be needed to store, let's say, twice the global electrical usage (needed for EV's, conversion inefficiencies and growth)?
Global electrical generation was about 18 trillion kWh for 2006. (EIA site) divided by 365 = 50 billion per day. From a renewable energy point of view, more than one day's worth would have to be stored (even though largescale would decrease intermittancy problems). Figure on 3 days, for fun. 300 billion divided by 220Kwh/cubic meter = 1.36 cubic kilometers. Sounds like a lot, however (previous searching suggests)
humanity has consumed about 40 CUBIC MILES of oil alone (in a century)! Another way to look at it is to theoritically use solar panels to generate 100% of that electricity... (Without doing further math), they say 100 by 100 square miles is needed for USA. Times that by 10 for double global for convenience.

100,000 square miles or 259,000 sq km. 1.36 km divided by 259,000 = 5.26 (to the)-6 (that's what calculator says) or about 5 mm laminated undernieth each panel!

With LiFePO4's 5,000 or so partial charge cycles, I think it's worth some rich corporation's time to figure out how to make it a large scale objective, especially for utility use (imagine their "eco" image)!
 
  • #211
mheslep said:
Om - Did you build the motor yourself? Conversion? If so I'm interested in a similar DIY project and am wondering how well the HP rating on the piston engine matches w/ the HP rating on the electric motor in regards to actual boat speed.
The motor is a 1 hp 12vdc permanent magnet type which I mated up with a 1.5 hp lower unit. It was done purely as an experiment to collect data. I've never had a 1 hp gas motor so I can't really compare the two. I can only tell you that overdriving the motor with 24vdc pushed me along at 3.57 mph, and overheated the motor to an estimated 400'F. Ouch. Lessons learned: Install a thermometer. Motor is too small for my needs. Cost of fuel for the 30 minute, 1.7 mile round trip would have been 8 cents, had the panels not been the original source of energy. Cost with my 40hp ICE would have been about 1/4 gallon of gasoline, but would have taken only 3 minutes. The batteries were not matched. About an hour after the test, one of the batteries voltage indicated that it was nearly 70% charged. The other was dead. I already knew the batteries should be matched, but was surprised at the difference.

But the point of my post was not that either vehicle could be directly driven by the panels, only that they are a non-fossil fuel source of energy. The automobile had lost the serpentine belt tensioner that drove the alternator. The panels only replaced the alternator to drive the 13 miles home such that repairs could be made. (I was actually surprised that it worked.)

The boat mod was inspired by Myles Twete's "http://www.evalbum.com/492"". Which is actually moored where my electric boat experiment took place.
(Ooops. I see I'm https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1948388&postcount=27". Senility Now!)
Edit: also - since LiIon is getting pretty cheap in some places, you might look at upgrading those lead acid bricks.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2513502&postcount=199
Yes. It took me a while to clean up all the drool when you posted that the other day. :blushing:

But that motors days as a boat pusher are over. It's now mated to an old alternator doing new experiments.

pf_motor_generator.jpg


I'm also considering pulling the gas engines off of my lawnmower and rototiller and putting in quick disconnects such that the motor can be swapped between the two. Thus eliminating two more gas guzzlers, and putting my usually idling panels to work. In the summer that is. I hate these stinking tree hugging neighbors of mine...

SOLAR_TRACK_NOV_15_2008_570x190.JPG


Though I've 4 firs over 100 ft tall on my plot, so I'm sure my neighbors to the north say the same thing about me.
 
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  • #212
fireofenergy said:
Ok, I'm going to try it again...
Gasoline verses lifepo4

Volumetric energy density = 220 Wh/liter.
Gasoline is 8,760Wh/liter.
~9500 Wh/liter, or ~122700 BTUs per US gallon

Gravimetric energy density = 90 Wh/kg
LiFePO is ~135 Wh/kg
Gasoline is 1,270Wh/kg
Maybe you dropped a zero. Gasoline is ~12500 Wh/kg, or ~19300 BTU/lb
 
  • #213
OmCheeto said:
The motor is a 1 hp 12vdc
[...]
I can only tell you that overdriving the motor with 24vdc pushed me along at 3.57 mph, and overheated the motor to an estimated 400'F. Ouch. Lessons learned: Install a thermometer...
Install a thermometer? How about run the motor at rated voltage?
 
  • #214
mheslep said:
Install a thermometer? How about run the motor at rated voltage?

The mobility company from which the motor came installed their own nameplate. I have not a clue who originally manufactured it or what the actual motor ratings are. 12V and 1hp are guesses based upon the motors size, and inability to dissipate heat when run at 24V. It may even be a 24v motor. But the removal of the worm gear and transmission has changed the conditions that the motor was designed operate under. It is for this reason that I would highly advise installing a temperature gauge when doing such experiments.

Some might just say to install a fuse or breaker. This is impractical as motors can handle quite a bit of short term abuse, but not long term abuse. And you wouldn't want to have to change a fuse while a 60,000 ton freighter is bearing down on you, or a tractor trailer decides to run a red light while you're in the middle of an intersection.
 
  • #215
The WSJ was the basis for these https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2381030&postcount=82" on Chinese EV and battery maker BYD and founder Wang. Fortune also came out with this article.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/13/technology/gunther_electric.fortune/index.htm
Its topically about Buffet, who invested $230m in BYD, but principally about Wang. The guy is remarkable. At 43, he is what I'd call an old school entrepreneur.

Fortune said:
Wang typically works until 11 p.m. or midnight, five or six days a week. "In China, people of my generation put work first and life second," says the CEO, whose wife takes responsibility for raising their two children.

This "human resource advantage" is "the most important part" of BYD's strategy, Wang says. His engineers investigate a wide array of technologies, from automobile air-conditioning systems that can run on batteries to the design of solar-powered streetlights. Unlike most automakers, BYD manufactures nearly all its cars by itself - not just the engines and body but air conditioning, lamps, seatbelts, airbags, and electronics. "It is difficult for others to compete," Wang says. "If we put our staff in Japan or the U.S., we could not afford to do anything like this."

Wang himself grew up in extreme poverty. His parents, both farmers, died before he entered high school, and he was raised by an older brother and sister. The train ride from the village where he grew up to Central South Industrial University of Technology, where he earned his chemistry degree, took him by Yellow Mountain, a popular destination for hikers and tourists, but he has never visited there. "I didn't go then because we had no money," he says. "I don't go now because we have no time."

As for accumulating wealth? "I'm not interested in it," he claims. He certainly doesn't live a very lavish lifestyle. He was paid about $265,000 in 2008, and he lives in a BYD-owned apartment complex with other engineers. His only indulgences are a Mercedes and a Lexus, and they have a practical purpose: He takes their engines apart to see how they work. On a trip to the U.S., he once tried to disassemble the seat of a Toyota owned by Fred Ni, an executive who was driving him around. Shortly after BYD went public, Wang did something extraordinary: He took approximately 15% of his holdings in BYD and distributed the shares to about 20 other executives and engineers at the company. He still owns roughly 28% of the shares, worth about $1 billion.
 
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  • #216
Per http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE61609S20100207". Range 100 miles. Base price somewhere in the $20k range w/ no battery. The BP network - charge spots, switching stations, and leased batteries - is due to come online in Israel in ~9 months. I haven't seen any reports on the switching station progress, which is key to that business model.
 
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  • #217
My opinion is that Elon Musk is an absolute moron. Tesla won't last very long. They can't compete with the big boys.
 
  • #218
Brian_C said:
My opinion is that Elon Musk is an absolute moron ... can't compete with the big boys.
Yes you obviously need a very special kind of intellect to get into the state of GM/Chrysler/etc
 
  • #219
mgb_phys said:
Yes you obviously need a very special kind of intellect to get into the state of GM/Chrysler/etc
Yes, cue Doctor Evil here with pinky finger to lip to say GM's market cap is [STRIKE]$4.5 MILLION DOLLARS[/STRIKE]. Whoops, wrong GM. Symbol is MTLQQ - http://www.google.com/finance?hl=en&tab=we&q=MTLQQ" That compared to scrawny Tesla Motor's $359 M.

dr%2Bevil.jpg
 
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  • #220
The GM technique, lose money on every sale - but make up for it in volume !
 
  • #221
Following up on several of the earlier delivery/service truck fleet https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2396343&postcount=129", it appears FedEx will be the first out using EVs for van/truck fleets on any large scale.

electric-fedex-truck-roadside.jpg


http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6662358/green/first-all-electric-fedex-truck-journeys-down-route-66/index.html
FedEx sourced its electric truck from U.K. firm Modec and completely revamped all onboard systems. In prototype guise, an electric motor draws power from an 80-kilowatt-hour battery and generates 102 horsepower and 220 pound-feet of torque. While range is a major concern with pure electric vehicles, the truck reportedly offers a 100-mile range and is equipped with regenerative braking. Additional important specs include a 3000-pound payload rating and a top speed of 50 mph.
 
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  • #222
The first modern operational battery switching station is open in Tokyo. Looks like a good design to me. It services a 90 day trial run of three taxies running around Tokyo. They are converted Nissan compact SUVs, using batteries made by A123, 17 kWh. Station switches batteries in about one minute.

Promo video showing construction and operation of the station.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0mDhCGkkA

Still no word of any US car manufacturer taking an interest in battery switching.
 
  • #223
Navistar, the parent of International, is manufacturing these FedEx trucks.

Specs:
80 kWh battery, 100 mile range, 102HP, 4400 lb payload, 220 VAC 3 phase charge, 6-8 hours to charge. A123 is making the battery. Cost is $100k greater than a similar diesel truck, but fuel costs may pay for themselves over 10-15 years at ~$8k savings per year in energy costs.
http://gas2.org/2010/05/13/navistar...n-of-its-all-electric-commercial-2-ton-truck/
 
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