News Emma Watson on Equality and UN HeForShe Campaign

1. Sep 27, 2014

Staff: Mentor

2. Sep 28, 2014

nikkkom

I wouldn't participate or help in any such campaigns.

I believe in Western countries women already have absolutely the same rights as men.
In fact it sometimes feels like they have more rights.
For example, in divorces, when they don't resolve amiably, men usually lose a lot of \$, as well as the custody of their children.

There is this joke that soon it will be a crime to be a white young male.

I am against any discrimination. I am against discrimination of women, *and men*.

3. Sep 28, 2014

WWGD

Right on, nikkkom. Let's imprison some 1,000,000 women, so there can be equal imprisonment rate. Let's start giving custody to millions of dads to get equality in family court, where moms get custody more often . Let's get women to sign up for selective service system at 18 (who has fought most wars? )..... cherry-picking continues. Let's allow dads to discontinue child support when DNA testing shows the children they are supporting are not their own (some women groups oppose this.) And show me a study that clearly shows women get paid less _for the same work_ -- why would anyone hire a man if this was the case? . How about we start spending the same amount to fight prostate cancer as we do for breast cancer, since both have the same fatality rates? How about we talk about domestic violence against men, not just against women? A man cannot fight back because the second he even tries to defend himself and touches a woman in self-defense, he will go to jail and have a record. Good luck finding a reasonable job/housing after that. Enough of this nonsense, let's hear the other side of the story for once:

http://www.cuil.pt/r.php?cx=002825717068136152164:qf0jmwd8jku&cof=FORID:10&ie=UTF-8&q=men's rights&sa=Search.

Last edited: Sep 28, 2014
4. Sep 30, 2014

jz92wjaz

I liked her speech. Most people subconsciously and unintentionally discriminate in ways that hurt both genders. Subconscious/unintentional bias against men may mean higher conviction rates and longer jail sentences for the same crime, when compared to women, and can lead to false assumptions that equally qualified women are less suited to a job, resulting in lower pay. When a husband is more suited to care for children and a wife is more suited to work, societal pressures often push the man into work, and leave the woman as the primary caregiver for the children. Ideally, we'd live in a society that lets people be who they are, and treats them as individuals, and not as members of a group. However, human nature is what it is, and it's hard to change.

5. Sep 30, 2014

GTOM

"No country in the world can yet say they have achieved gender equality."

Different things or people will be never all equal, yeah man dont have to be aggressive, masculine whatever... then they wonder why girls choose the bad guys... while they remain to be cute friends.

6. Sep 30, 2014

WWGD

O.K, so I made an idiot of myself by reacting in a knee-jerk way. Sorry , Astronuc, others, I stand embarrassed and corrected; Emma Watson was actually pretty reasonable. Since I decry ideologues, I should try to avoid being one myself.

7. Sep 30, 2014

lisab

Staff Emeritus
You beat me to it - I was going to admonish you for not actually watching the video :p!

I really liked her speech. Her message isn't a feminist one, it's a human one.

8. Sep 30, 2014

Tobias Funke

She would probably be the first to say that it is a feminist message, which in no way means it can't also be a human one. Wasn't one of her points how feminism is misrepresented as an extreme man-hating ideology? The fact that people are so quick to claim that it's not feminist because it's reasonable and they agree with it just proves her point. Well, that and the fact that people are essentially calling her a man-hater without watching the video.

9. Sep 30, 2014

Enigman

I liked her better when she was doing it for S.P.E.W. but this is great too.

10. Sep 30, 2014

Greg Bernhardt

Loved the video. Rock on Emma!

11. Sep 30, 2014

OmCheeto

Me too. I find it difficult not to think like she does. Does this make us "inadvertent feminists"?

hmmm... Not sure about the t-shirt though.

I only look like that for the first 30 minutes after waking up every morning.

12. Sep 30, 2014

Bandersnatch

Your best 30 minutes of the day?

It's a scary thing that the word "feminist" evokes its caricature before its actual meaning.

13. Sep 30, 2014

WWGD

There are many different brands and degrees of feminism (as there are of many movements) , some brands more extreme than others; some of these _are_ man-hating IMO . Her statement may be interpreted in different ways, maybe meaning that she identifies herself with the brands that are not man-hating. And, Tobias Funke, it would be a good idea if you for once addressed me _directly_ instead of making all sort of oblique references to me. At least I admit when I am wrong; and I can see different interpretations, which you are apparently unable/unwilling/both to do. You seem to be unable/unwilling to conceive of this possibility: there is no such a thing as a monolithic feminist movement, so referring to feminism without additional qualifications is at best ambiguous.

14. Sep 30, 2014

WWGD

It is scarier that some cannot see that there is a very extreme brand of the feminist movement, by no means a caricature; it is a very well-organized and very well-funded movement, with very outspoken and very active members wanting to pass all sorts of men-hating laws. Feminism is _not_ a monolithic movement with just one variant. Why don't you show up in one of the classes at Hunter College in CUNY or many other schools throughout the country -- and bring your cup protector with you - because you will be demeaned, figuratively castrated accused of every evil that has ever happened , and will not be given _any_ chance to reply to the systematic cherry-picking from a professor who does not understand the most basic aspects of statistics.
These are tenured professors, not by far outside-of-the-mainstream nuts sitting in the middle-of-nowhere; this means that several people, whole committees who were aware of their hateful views approved of them and decided to let them go on.

Before you make statements like these, spend a few days watching MSNBC, where many rich/influential feminist constantly spew their hatred of men and make indefensible statements that go unchallenged: Donna Edwards (paraphrase): Some people claim there is no unfairness in pay ; that is just not true. Some famous professor : today's youth agree with us that there is unfairness in pay in today's world. Wow, really, is that what passes for a debate? That is just not true? Got me, you're right. So today's youth believe there is unfairness. Guess what , yesterday's youth believed Blacks were inferior.

Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
15. Sep 30, 2014

Bandersnatch

I'm not saying there are no "extremist feminists", for the lack of a better label. I'm saying they're just as representative of the majority of feminists as Ken Ham and the Creation Museum is of the majority of Christians.

16. Sep 30, 2014

WWGD

Not so. like I said, these are not far-out nuts having no influence; these are extremists that are very well-embedded in the mainstream as tenured professors, as well-paid consultants in mainstream cable TV --MSNBC in prime time, (not on channel 557 at 3 a.m.) as senators, etc.. They are very well-funded and very well-organized, and frequently promote the passing of laws that benefit them at men's expense . This is very different from a lonely nut with no influence ,having a webpage with 10 views in the last 5 years. The difference with your ref. is that , AFAIK, Ken Ham and his museum have only limited influence, limited funding, visibility media access , limited influence on the mainstream, and are commonly recognized as being absurd. Not so for the brand I refer to.

17. Sep 30, 2014

Tobias Funke

WWGD, I wasn't only referring to you in this thread. There's a pretty major backlash against Watson for her speech in the men's rights arena*, and I addressed you very directly in another thread, so I don't know what you mean by "for once." You jump at any opportunity to launch into your script about strawmen feminists, either when it has nothing to do with the thread or, in this case, without knowing what you're talking about. Calling you wrong multiple times for doing the same thing doesn't make me close-minded. Even your methodology is meaningless because making a list of 10 or so "men vs. women" statistics accomplishes nothing. "Men commit suicide more" can easily be paired against the similarly themed "women are twice as likely to suffer from depression." Do they cancel each other out then? That's really your approach to such a nuanced issue?

There's been an active misinformation campaign against feminism for over 100 years (see the anti-suffragette propaganda for example) and you're falling for it perfectly**. Yes, to your credit you admitted that you were wrong, and you can use this as a learning experience and question whether you might have the wrong idea about feminism---or at least the wrong ratio of extreme feminists with power : regular feminists who don't want to destroy men--or you can keep doubling down and complaining about all these rabid feminist lunatics that are supposedly constantly on TV and infiltrating the government.

*Anyone interested in what these people think in general should check out David Futrelle's blog. These aren't random trolls he's quoting (not always or even most of the time at least), they're people in leadership positions and respected within their community.

**I can't resist another footnote. This smear campaign is similar to and interects several others. I noticed that you mentioned past ideas about race, because obviously racism is wrong. Yet you liked a post that "joked" (we know it wasn't entirely a joke though) about a near future with white men being persecuted and, I guess, arrested. There was no mention of race at all before that. So what type of person says something like that? A non-racist? Not too likely. (note that I asked what type of person says something like that, not agrees with the overall post; I'm not calling you a racist)

Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
18. Sep 30, 2014

WWGD

Please do quote the post about white men being persecuted and arrested that I liked. Because this 'liking' thing has been in place here for around a week -or-so. Please do give me a link to it. And calling me wrong just shows you disagree with me , because you have not offered a single serious counter to anything I said. And your claims of strawmen are just garbage, and difficult to take seriously when you repeatedly engage in red herrings.

And please convince me that there is a backlash in "the men's rights arena" , whatever that may mean. And don't patronize me on my having the wrong idea on feminism, when I have never seen any real effort on your part to consider the possibility that _you_ are wrong. And please do look at the feminists that believe that men should support for life children that are not their own.

Besides, what do you mean supposedly are constantly on TV ? Have you ever watched prime-time cable? What do you mean that the extreme feminists are marginal figures? Have you ever been to a mainstream class on feminism? These are _tenured professors_ that are teaching classes where evidence is cherry-picked. And there consultants in prime-time cable. There are female senators that use words like "sexual assault" and even "rape" in the most casual way; it is a jury that must decide whether a rape/assault happened. How is this a marginal movement, a fringe? These college professors and other women espousing these views have also appeared a few times on C-Span book TV. How is this not a substantial representation of this extreme brand?
Of course, you believe that your exposure and your experience are perfectly representative of the general experience with feminists, and anyone who does not report a similar experience to yours is necessarily biased. So don't patronize me on open-mindness until you show some yourself.

And, if you want to have a serious discussion, stop distorting and ridiculing what I say , re "women who are supposedly infiltrating the government". I only said that there were female senators along these extremists.

And what is the point of that link on Futrelle? You're referring me to someone who agrees with you and who mocks those who disagree with him. What gives?

Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
19. Sep 30, 2014

WWGD

Here is another example of the absurdity of so many of your claims. In this case I am referring to your claim that there is a serious backlash against Emma Watson. A Cuil search on Emma Watson:

http://www.cuil.pt/r.php?cx=0028257...cof=FORID:10&ie=UTF-8&q=emma watson&sa=Search

Reveals only one indirect reference to her speech on women's rights in the first 3 pages. Is that what you call a serious backlash? Or maybe you are providing evidence of how little men's rights matter that the search produces no hits on men's rights organizations?

And here is a search for "Emma Watson, Men's rights":

http://eldritchedain.wordpress.com/2014/09/21/an-open-letter-to-emma-watson/

There is one mention in the first three pages of someone trying to hack her site and post nude images of her in retaliation. Is this the great backlash you refer to? You seem to expect that I will agree with you just because you say I am wrong. That is not going to happen; I form my opinions carefully, I can support them, I need convincing counters, and you have not offered a single one so far. You seem to be stuck in a self-righteous vicious circle of unfalsifiable beliefs.

Now, Tobias, start finding a justification for these quotes from the "marginal" man-haters:
Here are 23 more feminist statements we (men) are required to overlook because feminists (and you) tell us to…
1)I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them. Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor
2)The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process. Linda Gordon
3)I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig. Andrea Dworkin
4)Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage. Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW
5)Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Andrea Dworkin
6)The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist. Ti-Grace Atkinson
7)Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear. Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will p.6
8)When a woman reaches ****** with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression. Sheila Jeffrys
9)Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated. Catherine MacKinnon
10)The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men. Sharon Stone
11)Ninety-five percent of women’s experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive… women didn’t go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo. Jodie Foster, quoted in The New York Times Magazine
12)The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race. Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future – If There Is One – Is Female
13)And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference. Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime
14)If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males. Mary Daly
15)If anyone is prosecuted for filing a false report, then victims of real attacks will be less likely to report them. David Angier
16)Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience. Catherine Comins
17)As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women…he can sexually molest his daughters… THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE. Marilyn French
18)I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it. Barbara Jordan, former Congresswoman
19)Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release. Germaine Greer
20)Man-hating is everywhere, but everywhere it is twisted and transformed, disguised, tranquilized, and qualified. It coexists, never peacefully, with the love, desire, respect, and need women also feel for men. Always man-hating is shadowed by its milder, more diplomatic and doubtful twin, ambivalence. Judith Levine
21)omen have their faults / men have only two: / everything they say / everything they do. Popular Feminist Graffiti
22)We are taught, encouraged, moulded by and lulled into accepting a range of false notions about the family. As a source of some of our most profound experiences, it continues to be such an integral part of our emotional lives that it appears beyond criticism. Yet hiding from the truth of family life leaves women and children vulnerable. Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women
23)I do want to be able to explain to a 9-year-old boy in terms he will understand why I think it’s OK for girls to wear shirts that revel in their superiority over boys. Treena Shapiro

And how about the SCUM manifesto, Tobias

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto

?

Tobias, extremism by women is so rare, and so marginal that these must have been the _only_ vicious comments ever expressed, right?

Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
20. Oct 1, 2014

GTOM

She is cute that she cares about some man's problem also, just live in an illusion... even in many arabic countries woman can become members of police, pilots, in the rest of them, that feminist and equality stuff still has some useful purpose, otherwise it is a nonsense, that results men importing wives from Malaysia, because they are still feminine, and girls seeking the company of arabic and african men...
I'm really glad i met men who shattered illusions.