English is not normal, says John McWhorter

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English is notably distinct from other languages, with no close relatives that allow for easy comprehension without prior training. Its evolution from Old English, heavily influenced by Celtic languages, has resulted in a complex linguistic landscape. The language has borrowed extensively from various languages, making it a linguistic melting pot with words from French, Latin, and many others. This borrowing is often seen as a form of linguistic theft, yet it enriches English rather than detracting from its integrity. The simplification of English grammar, particularly in comparison to languages like German, has made it more accessible, contributing to its status as a global lingua franca. Discussions also highlight the challenges of English spelling and pronunciation, which can be inconsistent and confusing. The topic of gender in language reveals that while English lacks grammatical gender for inanimate objects, it still assigns gender to certain nouns, such as ships. Overall, the unique characteristics of English stem from its historical invasions and cultural exchanges, leading to a language that is both complex and adaptable.
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I just stumbled across an essay by linguist John McWhorter from 2015.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-is-english-so-weirdly-different-from-other-languages

There is no other language, for example, that is close enough to English that we can get about half of what people are saying without training and the rest with only modest effort. German and Dutch are like that, as are Spanish and Portuguese, or Thai and Lao. The closest an Anglophone can get is with the obscure Northern European language called Frisian: if you know that tsiis is cheese and Frysk is Frisian, then it isn’t hard to figure out what this means: Brea, bûter, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk. But that sentence is a cooked one, and overall, we tend to find that Frisian seems more like German, which it is.

English started out as, essentially, a kind of German. Old English is so unlike the modern version that it feels like a stretch to think of them as the same language at all. Hwæt, we gardena in geardagum þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon – does that really mean ‘So, we Spear-Danes have heard of the tribe-kings’ glory in days of yore’? Icelanders can still read similar stories written in the Old Norse ancestor of their language 1,000 years ago, and yet, to the untrained eye, Beowulf might as well be in Turkish.

The first thing that got us from there to here was the fact that, when the Angles, Saxons and Jutes (and also Frisians) brought their language to England, the island was already inhabited by people who spoke very different tongues. Their languages were Celtic ones, today represented by Welsh, Irish and Breton across the Channel in France. The Celts were subjugated but survived, and since there were only about 250,000 Germanic invaders – roughly the population of a modest burg such as Jersey City – very quickly most of the people speaking Old English were Celts.
 
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There is no other language, for example, that is close enough to English that we can get about half of what people are saying without training and the rest with only modest effort.

Why the 'for example' in there.
Does the rest of his article sound as confusing too.

Nevertheless, English has no siblings, maybe cousins, since it has borrowed a word or phrase from wherever.
So reading a sentence in english, one may recognize, french, german, american native ( not just one language ), latin, just to name a few. Of course, it stand to reason, anyone would have to familiar with a great many languages, it they did not know english, in order to 'translate' on the fly.
 
256bits said:
since it has borrowed a word or phrase from wherever.
A favorite quote of mine, which I am sure I posted before, is from James Nicoll:

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary"
 
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I really love all these language posts.
Fascinating in all that they entail.
 
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jedishrfu said:
Ah cannae ken how come sassenach is sae weel-kent.

http://www.scotranslate.com/

I cannot understand why English is so popular
As spoken 2am downtown Saturday night.
"I cannot know how come sasquash is so weel-kent."
Unfortunately, my 'inebriated to english' translator balked at the term 'weel-kent.
 
jedishrfu said:
Ah cannae ken how come sassenach is sae weel-kent.

http://www.scotranslate.com/

I cannot understand why English is so popular
And Google cannae xlate that back to English!

(The only "Scottish" I could find on Google is "SCOTS GAELIC")

Which, given the English, Google comes up with:
Chan urrainn dhomh tuigsinn carson a tha fèill cho mòr air Beurla

ay yi yi!

Anyone have any clues for what's going on?
 
I'd say "weirdly different from other European languages." I have to say it seems easily explained by England being an island. I have for thirteen years lived on islands and their languages seem to me to be at least as "weird" as English. The only thing truly weird about English is that in their borrowing of foreign words they don't usually Anglicize the spelling. So you have words in many different pronunciation schemes. Bad idea. To make it even worse, sometimes they then pronounce the foreign word phonetically, as though it were English.

But I'm used to Japanese. It's such a mess I refused to try to learn it. Balinese is IMO really two languages. The place was conquered long ago and the conquerers still have their own language. Or there's the very complex grammar of Papua. Or Indonesian, which has even more borrowed words than does English. I don't think English is all that unusual. Not unusually unusual.
 
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Astronuc said:
I just stumbled across an essay by linguist John McWhorter from 2015.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-is-english-so-weirdly-different-from-other-languages
As has been pointed out, McWhorter must consider Scots as an English dialect, rather than a separate language. Let's take the opening stanza of Tam o'Shanter by Robert Burns:

When chapman billies leave the street,
And drouthy neebors neebors meet,
As market-days are wearing late,
And folk begin to tak the gate;
While we sit bousin, at the nappy,
And gettin fou and unco happy,
We think na on the lang Scots miles,
The mosses, waters, slaps, and stiles,
That lie between us and our hame,
Whare sits our sulky, sullen dame,
Gathering her brows like gathering storm,
Nursing her wrath to keep it warm.

Is that too close to English to be a different language?
 
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  • #10
Tom.G said:
Anyone have any clues for what's going on?
Gaelic is a completely different language. There are Scots and Irish Gaelic, which are related but significantly different. Hence the need for qualification as "Scots" Gaelic.

The Scots language itself is probably only considered a dialect of English and has almost died out. There are some in Scotland who want to revive it, but each generation uses fewer Scots words than the previous.
 
  • #11
Anyone who thinks English is not normal needs to visit Wales for a weekend.
It is nice countryside.
 
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  • #12
... especially around Dwygyfylchi.
 
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  • #13
PeroK said:
... especially around Dwygyfylchi.
My post was a third draft. The first two stood next to, then crossed the line regarding pf rules. Fun to write, fun to read but then sensible to change.

Anyway, Dwygyfychi, I googled to check it was an actual place/word because it looks like random letters thrown together.
It is also on the way to Bangor from my end looking at the map.

The English steal from every language as has been pointed out and I was confident that of all the languages we would not have been able to get anything from the Welsh.

I was wrong, we got flannel, crumpet, pikelet and also penguin to name a few.

Penguin?
 
  • #14
256bits said:
There is no other language, for example, that is close enough to English that we can get about half of what people are saying without training and the rest with only modest effort.

Why the 'for example' in there.
Does the rest of his article sound as confusing too.

Nevertheless, English has no siblings, maybe cousins, since it has borrowed a word or phrase from wherever.
So reading a sentence in english, one may recognize, french, german, american native ( not just one language ), latin, just to name a few. Of course, it stand to reason, anyone would have to familiar with a great many languages, it they did not know english, in order to 'translate' on the fly.
We are an Island and we were lucky to be invaded by so many interesting neighbours over the millennia. They brought war, rape and pillage but also language and culture.
When we finally got our act together by the 12th century (or so) we returned the compliment. To pretty much everyone I think.

The Lingua franca today as you know is English and some of my ancestors wrote some pretty decent books too.
Literature that will live forever.
Tom Sharp, Douglas Adams and of course the greatest Novelist of all time.
J R R Tolkien.
 
  • #15
pinball1970 said:
J R R Tolkien
so he is the kin of Tol, son perhaps. Or belongs to the Tol family from way back when nobody had last names.
Since he is from S. Africa, rather born there, it could be the name comes from the boer ( Dutch )
Are there many Tolkien's in England, and would they all be related in some fashion?
 
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  • #16
British English is getting progressively harder to understand. I've needed subtitles for Doctor Who in the last few years.
 
  • #17
256bits said:
so he is the kin of Tol, son perhaps. Or belongs to the Tol family from way back when nobody had last names.
Since he is from S. Africa, rather born there, it could be the name comes from the boer ( Dutch )
Are there many Tolkien's in England, and would they all be related in some fashion?
Tolkien is English, he was raised in Brum we are claiming him.
The English steal words then claim them it is nothing new. We also have stolen lands, peoples, kingdoms, the potato and the Elgin marbles.
One four year old is a trifle, that is, it is not a major thing, rather than the dessert.
Another example why English is fantastically ridiculous.
I am just so glad I was born here, no way I am smart enough to learn it from somewhere else.
 
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  • #18
Algr said:
British English is getting progressively harder to understand. I've needed subtitles for Doctor Who in the last few years.
That is because Dr Who stopped with Tom Baker, there could have been a renaissance with Christopher Eccleston but he left. I never forgave him for that.
I politely told him that face to face, he had "other projects" apparently.
A nice guy.(random pub meeting)
Mancunian English hit the world in the 1960s (back on track)
A taste of honey, Friday night Saturday morning and others.
BBC English is beautiful but regional English hit around then.

Just a quick thought, why gender words? You know who you are!

Call us crazy? sort that out first.
 
  • #19
Algr said:
British English is getting progressively harder to understand. I've needed subtitles for Doctor Who in the last few years.
"Lots of planets have a North".
 
  • #20
pinball1970 said:
The English steal words then claim them it is nothing new.
What is wrong with "stealing words?" It is not like the original language loses access to them. Who is harmed by this? Surely if someone has already given an object or idea a name, there is no need to invent another.

What is the Russian word for "plastic"? What is "internet" in Spanish? What is "quark" in French?
 
  • #21
Algr said:
What is wrong with "stealing words?" It is not like the original language loses access to them. Who is harmed by this? Surely if someone has already given an object or idea a name, there is no need to invent another.

What is the Russian word for "plastic"? What is "internet" in Spanish? What is "quark" in French?
Words? No problems. People land and resources big problems.
Quark is from a Novel I think?
 
  • #22
A relevant and related discussion.
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/problems-with-english.986040/
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/problems-with-english.986040/post-6318014

My wife sometimes needs subtitles to understand folks with strong Scottish, N. English (e.g., Yorkie), or Irish English.

I frequently visited Japan for work. During one trip, the team traveled to Matsuyama, Ehime Pref. on Shikoku Island. We did a two day seminar, and we have plenty of free time to explore the area. Our host arrange some trips to various parts of the island, including a dinner cruise on a river up in the mountains southeast of Matsuyama. We were with a larger group of colleagues from various Japanese nuclear utilities, and they had no problem understanding each other. However, the folks providing dinner on the boat spoke a local dialect of Japanese, and our host from Tokyo had some difficulty with the dialect. It was an old dialect that one would not normally hear in the major cities.

There were two dinner boats for our large group, and we were joined by local fishing boats on which the fishermen used cormorants (3 or 4 per boat) to catch fish. So we watched as the birds swam in front or to the side of the boat, diving underwater, then emerging with fish. The birds were retrieved and the fishermen would suspend them, and stroke the necks and breast until the birds regurgitated the fish. I'd seen the practice on TV before, but it was quite an experience to witness it in person.

We had a tour of the Ikata nuclear plant, including unit 3 which was undergoing testing at the time.
 
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  • #23
Algr said:
What is wrong with "stealing words?" It is not like the original language loses access to them. Who is harmed by this? Surely if someone has already given an object or idea a name, there is no need to invent another.

What is the Russian word for "plastic"? What is "internet" in Spanish? What is "quark" in French?
It's from James Joyce. Quark in French is probably Quark. Like bulldozer
 
  • #24
Vanadium 50 said:
"Lots of planets have a North".
Ate you saying the English language is polarising?
 
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  • #26
Whether a language is called a dialect is pretty arbitrary. I speak German and can't understand a word of either Dutch or the swiss version of German but they are both considered dialects. At the other extreme, I'm told that Nepal has 129 languages. I decided to let linguists worry about this distinction.
 
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  • #27
Can we address the gender question? English is not normal YET assignment of gender to inanimate things is reasonable in other languages?
 
  • #28
Le chat. Male. A cat in French is male? Really?
 
  • #29
pinball1970 said:
Can we address the gender question? English is not normal YET assignment of gender to inanimate things is reasonable in other languages?
Roman influence/interference perhaps
 
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  • #30
pinball1970 said:
Words? No problems. People land and resources big problems.
All land is stolen. The only question is how long ago it happened. The neanderthals and peking man want reparations.
 
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  • #31
pinball1970 said:
Can we address the gender question? English is not normal YET assignment of gender to inanimate things is reasonable in other languages?
My understanding is that English was simplified for the masses during a time when French was the language of the English Court. The genders, articles, adjectives and verb forms were all simplified. It happened in a generation, I believe.

The idea was that the court languages remained complicated as part of the barrier to entry.

For that reason English is a much easier language to get started. We have "the" where German has a table of 16 definite articles, depending on case and gender.
 
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  • #32
PeroK said:
My understanding is that English was simplified for the masses during a time when French was the language of the English Court. The genders, articles, adjectives and verb forms were all simplified. It happened in a generation, I believe.

The idea was that the court languages remained complicated as part of the barrier to entry.

For that reason English is a much easier language to get started. We have "the" where German has a table of 16 definite articles, depending on case and gender.
Ok that's fine but we replaced all that with "the" .Imagine assigning genders to elementary particles and forces?
 
  • #33
pinball1970 said:
Anyone who thinks English is not normal needs to visit Wales for a weekend.
It is nice countryside.

I remember seeing a humorous movie where a passenger is watching the town sign go by and go by and go by. It must have had a 100 letters in it. Can't remember the movie though.
 
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  • #34
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  • #36
Algr said:
All land is stolen. The only question is how long ago it happened. The neanderthals and peking man want reparations.
Yes and I am consulting legal advice regarding Roman invasion, Norse then all those French and Germanic people. I am looking at my language and in see that you invaded.

I think we gained some stuff (what did the Romans ever do for us)
Astronuc said:
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch?

I've been there.

https://www.llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.co.uk/
And as a Brit? At that time? I would have been ORDERED in as a soldier.

Change the name, it makes no sense. Why Don't you just use our language?

NO, NEVER, NEVER!.

OK, why not just..

NO, We will tell our kids to HATE you.
 
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  • #37
pinball1970 said:
The English steal from every language as has been pointed out and I was confident that of all the languages we would not have been able to get anything from the Welsh.
"cwm" (pronounced "koom", to rhyme with "boom")
I can remember English teachers in grade school listing the vowels in English as a, e, i, o, and u, and sometimes y. One or two teachers also added "and sometimes w." When I asked for an example, one that they gave was the word "awe." A lame example that I didn't buy.

The perfect example is the Welsh word "cwm," which is now a part of English, as evident by the Mt. Everest location called the Western Cwm.

I can't think of any other words in English that truly qualify as examples where 'w' appears as a vowel. If there are, I have no doubt that they are Welsh words that have crept into the language.
 
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  • #38
I just came across this interesting thread on a topic of permanent interest to me (and anyone who often spends time in other nations and, or has frequent verbal and written exchanges across the borders of countries and continents, as these days is usually the case with scientists, engineers and many other types of workers).
I am interested in this subject as someone whose native tongue is not English, but uses it daily and often also thinks in it -- and has done so for years now.
I appreciate the excellent article linked at the beginning of this thread on why English is "so weird."
Well, I agree with much in the article, but I am not convinced that English is specially weird. Or weirder than, let's say German, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Japanese, Greek or Italian. Or Chinese. In fact, of the several languages spoken in the British Isles, I would say that we are fortunate that were the English that predominated in the 16th -19th centuries British conquest of much of the non-European world. Because I seriously doubt millions of us would be better off if we had to learn Welsh instead of English to get on in any of the relevant and, or interesting world-wide businesses of our Age. Not that we couldn't do it: after all the Welsh do just that (as long as they can find people abroad to correspond with, or talk to in this language about some matter of importance to them). But is the essential simplicity of English grammar that I believe makes it hands-down the better choice, among European official national languages at least.

One and only one thing has been a source of difficulty for those of us who are native speakers of phonetic languages written using some straightforward variant of the Roman alphabet. (A combination that made it possible for me, not at all gifted in this regard, to read children books and to write a few short stories at age five, just a few weeks after graduating from drawing squiggles on gridded paper to loosen my hand enough to write words using the letters of the alphabet, once I learned to pronounce them in their (in my written language) unique and unvarying ways. Not being myself at all unique in this respect among my classmates at a local kindergarten run by both severe and immensely helpful Catholic nouns).

And that one thing that was for me an impediment to switch languages to English? It's exuberantly and vaguely, almost rule-free spelling and pronunciation of written words and the self-indulging use of diphthongs and triphthongs, those continuous slides through series of sometimes partially unwritten vowels used for no particular reason, often at the ends of words. Slides that come naturally to English speakers, who consequently mispronounce, to mention a simple, common example, the "o" ending in Italian and Spanish words as "ou" and not as "oh." That to some speakers of those languages can be aggravating, because it seems to be done on purpose to annoy them.

Take for example phonetic languages, such as German (or my native one, Spanish). I can pick up any text written in German and pronounce it clearly and intelligibly enough to be well-understood by native German speakers ... even without having the slightest idea of what is that I am reading. Of course, once I learn the words, I could do both with no problems whatsoever. Now writing complex sentences using correctly the complex German grammar on top of that, well ... that is a different story.

Therefore, all things considered, having studied closely both languages for very immediate and practical reasons that had to do with getting on with my life in places where they are spoken, I am very glad that English, with its simplified grammar, not German, with its old and complex one, for example, is the most used language today, by many living in most countries, world-wide. That is our own Age true Lingua Franca, the one that has let me speak with, write to, befriend and love people that were born and grew up in places where other languages I did not know and probably will never learn, are their own native tongues.
 
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  • #39
Mark44 said:
The perfect example is the Welsh word "cwm," which is now a part of English.
It doesn't work the other way as the Welsh are so precious about their language that they always change the spelling of foreign words they import. Hence caffi, tacsi, siop and bws. A Welsh IT manual must be fun.
 
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  • #40
... one of my favourites is "dim parcio", which you see everywhere in North Wales. There is no letter "k" in Welsh.
 
  • #41
pinball1970 said:
Le chat. Male. A cat in French is male? Really?
Great thread.So much to learn.
btw "la chatte"? ...you don't want to know really:smile:
 
  • #42
Mark44 said:
added "and sometimes w." When I asked for an example, one that they gave was the word "awe." A lame example that I didn't buy.
What defines a vowel, exactly?

I definitely agree that English is improved by having a logical understanding of how gender works.
 
  • #44
Algr said:
I definitely agree that English is improved by having a logical understanding of how gender works.
More important, IMO, is understanding of how pronouns are used as subjects or objects (direct or indirect) in English. This is something that many native speakers of English don't understand very well and have difficulty with, especially those who have never studied languages in which the nouns and pronouns are inflected; i.e., have different forms depending on where they appear in a sentence.

Some examples of incorrect use:
  • Me and her went out on a date last night.
Corrected: She and I went out on a date last night. "I and she" would be syntactically correct, but wouldn't normally be phrased that way.

  • The card was addressed to him and I.
Corrected: The card was addressed to him and me.
 
  • #45
pinball1970 said:
Can we address the gender question? English is not normal YET assignment of gender to inanimate things is reasonable in other languages?
Normal. Reasonable. In my 67 years here on Earth I have learned that there is no relation between the two.
 
  • #46
We have gender assignment to inanimate objects in English.
The ship is always feminine and there must surely be other examples. (the car?)

We even say "careful as she goes " about any object we are manhandling ,don't we?
 
  • #47
Astronuc said:
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
Wales. It had to be Wales.
 
  • #48
geordief said:
We have gender assignment to inanimate objects in English.
The ship is always feminine and there must surely be other examples. (the car?)

We even say "careful as she goes " about any object we are manhandling ,don't we?

From Paint Your Wagon, some examples of gender applied to the children of Mother Nature:

Away out here we got a name for rain and wind and fire.
The rain is Tess, the fire is Joe and they call the wind Mariah
...

https://genius.com/Sam-cooke-they-call-the-wind-mariah-lyrics

Despite what the online lyrics say I suspect that fire is named Jo and not Joe so that all of Mother Natures children are female. Father Time is either the father or grandfather of Mother Nature's kids.
 
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  • #49
Well we have a few 'double u' words.
Vacuum and continuum.
But those come from Latin, I think.
Mark44 said:
I can't think of any other words in English that truly qualify as examples where 'w' appears as a vowel. If there are, I have no doubt that they are Welsh words that have crept into the language.
And I think McWhorter was just trolling with his comments about Fries. The DUTCH can't understand their Friesland countrymen, so no, Fries is not the closest thing English has to a sister language. Dutch is far closer. Once you get over the changes in how vowel sounds are written (oe is English oo, and oo is English long o, for example) you really start to see where English words come from. We have 'night' in English and 'nacht' in Dutch--but in Dutch you HEAR those silent English letters. You also begin to see where we ALL borrowed. In English we have 'way'; The Dutch have 'weg', I suspect from German roots. In English we have 'manner' and in Dutch 'manier' -- both by way of French from the Latin.

Dutch retained the 'continental' object-subject-verb construction like French in proper speech, though; whereas English jettisoned THAT.
English: I gave it to him
Dutch: Ik heb het naar hem gegeven (I have it to him given)
French: Je la lui a donne (I it to him gave)

Love or hate the guys who created the first English dictionaries, they made spellings reflect word origins. That gives us a LOT of spelling rules that other languages who didn't do that, or didn't borrow so extensively, don't have.

Most of his McWhorter's article is sensible enough. But Fries? no. Scots (and yes, that is real and distinct from Scottish English) or Dutch. Frieslanders speak a language like back-haller West Virginian or outport Newfinese. If you didn't grow up there, you can't understand it.
 
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  • #50
N1206 said:
But Fries? no. Scots (and yes, that is real and distinct from Scottish English) or Dutch. Frieslanders speak a language like back-haller West Virginian or outport Newfinese. If you didn't grow up there, you can't understand it.
https://encounternewfoundland.com/newfinese-101-words-and-phrases-youre-likely-to-hear-on-the-rock/
The island of Newfoundland has a language all its own. Born from the interaction of early English, Irish, and French settlers, and preserved by isolation, the uncommon speech of the province is a dialect of English that has been deemed one of the most distinct in the world, and it can vary from one community to the next, as well as from region to region. Though you should be able to understand the accent fairly easily, the odd grammar and alien words and phrases in common use on the island may leave you shaking your head or staring in blank incomprehension at the speaker.
The language looks like slang.

I've traced some of distant relatives through Newfoundland/Labrador, Nova Scotia, Ontario to various part of Canada and US, and other groups of relatives through Pennsylvania and Virginia to places throughout the US, with several clusters in the Western Virginia and Eastern Kentucky. Probably mostly Scottish/Welsh (who were miners, farmers, fishermen), some who went through Ireland, as well as Irish, and some English.
 
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