Enron - a case for government regulation of corporations

  1. Astronuc

    Staff: Mentor

    We often hear of 'free enterprise', 'free markets', 'less regulation', and so on, but what happens when the managers of a company act in criminal or negligent fashion.

    The ENRON trial is now heating up with testimony from Jeff Skilling and later this month, Kenneth Lay. Both claim innocence and that they were duped into believeing everything was OK.

    However, we then have testimony from people like Sherron Watkins:
    Lay then went on to freeze the retirement accounts of employees, while he and other officers dumped their stock to an unsuspecting market.

    I am sure we'll hear the equivalent of "It wasn't me!"

    See more at - Former Enron Executives Go on Trial
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5181660
     
  2. jcsd
  3. I am a big supporter of less government, and in a case like this I don't think it was a lack of regulation that caused the problem. The people on trial here should be tried for theft by fraud, and, if convicted, forced to pay back as much of what they stole as possible.
     
  4. BobG

    BobG 2,340
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    What kind of government regulation did you have in mind? As it is, when caught acting in a criminal or negligent fashion, the execs get tried for crimes.

    Holding individuals in the company personally accountable is a good thing. It would be a hard thing to take a stand against your bosses if they wanted you to cook the books for them. The possibility of being a codefendant adds a little extra motivation to resist.
     
  5. Pengwuino

    Pengwuino 7,118
    Gold Member

    I think this case shows the exact opposite (or well, half way): The government is doing its job when it comes to regulating businesses. What do we need? 300,000 government payrolled accountants being mandated into companies to make sure the government knows every litlte thing about the business? Talk about unconstitutional!

    Plus you tell me how hard a $30k a year government accountant would be to bribe when they have almost no fear of losing their job (as is with government employees these days).
     
  6. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing - there are regulations that are being enforced. Or are you suggesting that the government needs to be constantly monitoring all corporations?
     
  7. Astronuc

    Staff: Mentor

    For one, I am not sure the regulations are being enforced. I remember some discussions many years ago about sanctioning the FASB, but various parties decided against it.

    For another, as far as I can tell, many regulations are vague or ambiguous, and that is a big problem for prosecuting 'white collar' crime.

    I sometimes have to wonder if regulation is deliberately made vague or ambiguous in order to allow what would be otherwise illegal activity.

    Some experts have mentioned that Skilling and Lay could walk away without any jail time.

    It will come down to whether the jury believes that Skilling and Lay knew about and/or approved the illegal activities of Fastow and others. It will be interesting to see what happens in regard to what the jury understands about Lay and his knowledge of problems according to Sherron Watkins.
     
  8. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I'd be shocked if they didn't go to jail. The CFO is in jail for 10 years on a plea bargain! That means he thought that if he didn't take the plea, they'd string him up in front of the courthouse. The case must have bee ironclad - and there is no reason to presume the others will fare any better. The company itself was also convicted (one benefit of companies being considered singular entities is that companies can be tried). And if the others do go to jail, then the Enron case becomes an example of regulations that were enforced successfully.

    Unfortunately, most laws are putative - you can't arrest someone until after they commit the crimes. So the only other option for things like Enron is to have the government following the companies around. And I sure don't want that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2006
  9. edward

    edward 1,003
    Gold Member

    One thing that is evident is that fines do not work.
    As far as I can determine it might help if the Justice department would publish a yearly report on corporate crime. It would at least let people know in a more timely manner who has done what in the corporate world.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    THE TOP 100 CORPORATE CRIMINALS OF THE 1990's

    1) F. Hoffmann-La Roche Ltd.
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $500 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 21(1), May 24, 1999

    2) Daiwa Bank Ltd.
    Type of Crime: Financial
    Criminal Fine: $340 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 9(3), March 4, 1996

    3) BASF Aktiengesellschaft
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $225 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 21(1), May 24, 1999

    4) SGL Carbon Aktiengesellschaft (SGL AG)
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $135 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 19(4), May 10, 1999

    5) Exxon Corporation and Exxon Shipping
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $125 million
    5 Corporate Crime Reporter 11(3), March 18, 1991

    6) UCAR International, Inc.
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $110 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 15(6), April 13, 1998

    7) Archer Daniels Midland
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $100 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 40(1), October 21, 1996

    8)(tie) Banker's Trust
    Type of Crime: Financial
    Criminal Fine: $60 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 11(1), March 15, 1999

    8)(tie) Sears Bankruptcy Recovery Management Services
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $60 million
    13 Corporate Crime Reporter 7(1), February 15, 1999

    10) Haarman & Reimer Corp.
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal fine: $50 million
    11 Corporate Crime Reporter 5(4), February 3, 1997

    11) Louisiana-Pacific Corporation
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $37 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 23(1), June 8, 1998

    12) Hoechst AG
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $36 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 19(6), May 10, 1999

    13) Damon Clinical Laboratories, Inc.
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $35.2 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 39(6), October 14, 1996

    14) C.R. Bard Inc.
    Type of Crime: Food and drug
    Criminal Fine: $30.9 million
    7 Corporate Crime Reporter 41(1), October 25, 1993

    15) Genentech Inc.
    Type of Crime: Food and drug
    Criminal Fine: $30 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 16(3), April 19, 1999

    16) Nippon Gohsei
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $21 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 29(3), July 19, 1999

    17)(tie) Pfizer Inc.
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $20 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 30(1), July 26, 1999

    17)(tie) Summitville Consolidated Mining Co. Inc.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $20 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 20(3) May 20, 1996

    19)(tie) Lucas Western Inc.
    Type of Crime: False Statements
    Criminal Fine: $18.5 million
    9 Corporate Crime Reporter 4(6), January 30, 1995

    19)(tie) Rockwell International Corporation
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $18.5 million
    6 Corporate Crime Reporter 13(4), March 30, 1992

    21) Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $18 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 30(4), July 26, 1999

    22) Teledyne Industries Inc.
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $17.5 million
    6 Corporate Crime Reporter 39(9), October 12, 1992

    23) Northrop
    Type of Crime: False statements
    Criminal Fine: $17 million
    4 Corporate Crime Reporter 9(1), March 5, 1990

    24) Litton Applied Technology Division (ATD) and Litton Systems Canada (LSL)
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $16.5 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 27(1), July 5, 1999

    25) Iroquois Pipeline Operating Company
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $15 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 22(1), June 3, 1996

    26) Eastman Chemical Company
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $11 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 38(5), October 5, 1998

    27) Copley Pharmaceutical, Inc.
    Type of Crime: Food and drug
    Criminal Fine: $10.65 million
    11 Corporate Crime Reporter 22(1), June 2, 1997

    28) Lonza AG
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $10.5 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 10(1), March 8, 1999

    29) Kimberly Home Health Care Inc.
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $10.08 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 30(6), July 26, 1999

    30)(tie) Ajinomoto Co. Inc.
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $10 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 40(1), October 21, 1996

    30)(tie) Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI)
    Type of Crime: Financial
    Criminal Fine: $10 million
    4 Corporate Crime Reporter 3(1) January 22, 1990

    30)(tie) Kyowa Hakko Kogyo Co. Ltd.
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $10 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 40(1), October 21, 1996

    30)(tie) Warner-Lambert Company
    Type of Crime: Food and drug
    Criminal Fine: $10 million
    9 Corporate Crime Reporter 46(1), December 4, 1995

    34) General Electric
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $9.5 million
    6 Corporate Crime Reporter 30(7), July 27, 1992

    35)(tie) Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $9 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 23(3), June 8, 1998

    35)(tie) Showa Denko Carbon
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $9 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 19(4), May 10, 1999

    37) IBM East Europe/Asia Ltd.
    Type of Crime: Illegal exports
    Criminal Fine: $8.5 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 32(1), August 10, 1998

    38) Empire Sanitary Landfill Inc.
    Type of crime: Campaign finance
    Criminal fine: $8 million
    11 Corporate Crime Reporter 39(3), October 13, 1997

    39)(tie) Colonial Pipeline Company
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $7 million
    13 Corporate Crime Reporter 9(3), March 1, 1999

    39)(tie) Eklof Marine Corporation
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $7 million
    11 Corporate Crime Reporter 37(4), September 29, 1997

    41)(tie) Chevron
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $6.5 million
    6 Corporate Crime Reporter, 22(1), June 1, 1992

    41)(tie) Rockwell International Corporation
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $6.5 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 15(4), April 15, 1996

    43) Tokai Carbon Ltd. Co.
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $6 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 19(4), May 10, 1999

    44)(tie) Allied Clinical Laboratories, Inc.
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $5 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 45(1), November 25, 1996

    44)(tie) Northern Brands International Inc.
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $5 million
    13 Corporate Crime Reporter 1(1), January 4,1999

    44)(tie) Ortho Pharmaceutical Corporation
    Type of Crime: Obstruction of justice
    Criminal Fine: $5 million
    9 Corporate Crime Reporter 2(3), January 16, 1995

    44)(tie) Unisys
    Type of Crime: Bribery
    Criminal Fine: $5 million
    5 Corporate Crime Reporter 35(11), September 16, 1991

    44)(tie) Georgia Pacific Corporation
    Type of Crime: Tax evasion
    Criminal Fine: $5 million
    5 Corporate Crime Reporter 38(8), October 7, 1991

    49) Kanzaki Specialty Papers Inc.
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $4.5 million
    8 Corporate Crime Reporter 29(4), July 18, 1994

    50) ConAgra Inc.
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $4.4 million
    11 Corporate Crime Reporter 12(1), March 24, 1997

    51) Ryland Mortgage Company
    Type of Crime: Financial
    Criminal Fine: $4.2 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 32(1), August 10, 1998

    52)(tie) Blue Cross Blue Shield of Illinois
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $4 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 29(1), July 20, 1998

    52)(tie) Borden Inc.
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $4 million
    4 Corporate Crime Reporter 11(9), March 19, 1990

    52)(tie) Dexter Corporation
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $4 million
    6 Corporate Crime Reporter 35(6), September 14, 1992

    52)(tie) Southland Corporation
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $4 million
    4 Corporate Crime Reporter 11(9), March 19, 1990

    52)(tie) Teledyne Industries Inc.
    Type of Crime: Illegal exports
    Criminal Fine: $4 million
    9 Corporate Crime Reporter 5(3), February 6, 1995

    52)(tie) Tyson Foods Inc.
    Type of Crime: Public corruption
    Criminal Fine: $4 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 1(3), January 5, 1998

    58)(tie) Aluminum Company of America (ALCOA)
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $3.75 million
    5 Corporate Crime Reporter 29(6), July 22, 1991

    58)(tie) Costain Coal Inc.
    Type of Crime: Worker Death
    Criminal Fine: $3.75 million
    7 Corporate Crime Reporter 9(10), March 1, 1993

    58)(tie) United States Sugar Corporation
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $3.75 million
    5 Corporate Crime Reporter 27(4), December 9, 1991

    61) Saybolt, Inc., Saybolt North America
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $3.4 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 33(1), August 17, 1998

    62)(tie) Bristol-Myers Squibb
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $3 million
    6 Corporate Crime Reporter 18(3), May 4, 1992

    62)(tie) Chemical Waste Management Inc.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $3 million
    6 Corporate Crime Reporter 40(5), October 19, 1992

    62)(tie) Ketchikan Pulp Company
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $3 million
    9 Corporate Crime Reporter 13(1), April 3, 1995

    62)(tie) United Technologies Corporation
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $3 million
    5 Corporate Crime Reporter 21(1), May 27, 1991

    62)(tie) Warner-Lambert Inc.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $3 million
    11 Corporate Crime Reporter 37(3), September 29, 1997

    67)(tie) Arizona Chemical Co. Inc.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $2.5 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 39(5), October 14, 1996

    67)(tie) Consolidated Rail Corporation (Conrail)
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $2.5 million
    9 Corporate Crime Reporter 30(1), July 31, 1995

    69) International Paper
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $2.2 million
    5 Corporate Crime Reporter 31(7), August 5, 1991

    70)(tie) Consolidated Edison Company
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $2 million
    8 Corporate Crime Reporter 46(5), November 28, 1994

    70)(tie) Crop Growers Corporation
    Type of Crime: Campaign finance
    Criminal fine: $2 million
    11 Corporate Crime Reporter 4(3), January 27, 1997

    70)(tie) E-Systems Inc.
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $2 million
    4 Corporate Crime Reporter 33, September 3, 1990

    70)(tie) HAL Beheer BV
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $2 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 39(4), October 12, 1998

    70)(tie) John Morrell and Company
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $2 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 6(3), February 12, 1996

    70)(tie) United Technologies Corporation
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $2 million
    6 Corporate Crime Reporter 34(4), September 7, 1992

    76) Mitsubishi Corporation, Mitsubishi International Corporation
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $1.8 million
    8 Corporate Crime Reporter 29(4), July 18, 1994

    77)(tie) Blue Shield of California
    Type of Crime: Fraud
    Criminal Fine: $1.5 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 18(3), May 6, 1996

    77)(tie) Browning-Ferris Inc.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $1.5 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 23(3), June 8, 1998

    77)(tie) Odwalla Inc.
    Type of Crime: Food and drug
    Criminal Fine: $1.5 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 30(1), July 27, 1998

    77)(tie) Teledyne Inc.
    Type of Crime: False statements
    Criminal Fine: $1.5 million
    7 Corporate Crime Reporter 34(12), September 6, 1993

    77)(tie) Unocal Corporation
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $1.5 million
    8 Corporate Crime Reporter 12(8), March 21, 1994

    82)(tie) Doyon Drilling Inc.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $1 million
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 21(1), May 25, 1998

    82)(tie) Eastman Kodak
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $1 million
    4 Corporate Crime Reporter 14(1), April 9, 1990

    82)(tie) Case Corporation
    Type of Crime: Illegal exports
    Criminal Fine: $1 million
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 22(4), June 3, 1996

    85) Marathon Oil
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $900,000
    5 Corporate Crime Reporter 22(5), June 3, 1991

    86) Hyundai Motor Company
    Type of Crime: Campaign finance
    Criminal Fine: $600,000
    9 Corporate Crime Reporter 48(3), December 18, 1995

    87)(tie) Baxter International Inc.
    Type of Crime: Illegal Boycott
    Criminal Fine: $500,000
    7 Corporate Crime Reporter 13(7) , March 29, 1993

    87)(tie) Bethship-Sabine Yard
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $500,000
    9 Corporate Crime Reporter 26(4), July 3, 1995

    87(tie) Palm Beach Cruises
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $500,000
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 30(4), July 26, 1999

    87)(tie) Princess Cruises Inc.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $500,000
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 30(4), July 26, 1999

    91)(tie) Cerestar Bioproducts BV
    Type of Crime: Antitrust
    Criminal Fine: $400,000
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 28(3), June 29, 1998

    91)(tie) Sun-Land Products of California
    Type of Crime: Campaign finance
    Criminal Fine: $400,000
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 33(1), August 17, 1998

    93)(tie) American Cyanamid
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $250,000
    4 Corporate Crime Reporter 46(5), December 3, 1990

    93)(tie) Korean Air Lines
    Type of Crime: Campaign finance
    Criminal Fine: $250,000
    9 Corporate Crime Reporter 47(1), December 11, 1995

    93)(tie) Regency Cruises Inc.
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $250,000
    12 Corporate Crime Reporter 30(4), July 26, 1999

    96)(tie) Adolph Coors Company
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $200,000
    4 Corporate Crime Reporter 43(3), November 12, 1990

    96)(tie) Andrew and Williamson Sales Co.
    Type of crime: Food and drug
    Criminal fine: $200,000
    11 Corporate Crime Reporter 44(4), November 17, 1997

    96)(tie) Daewoo International (America) Corporation
    Type of Fine: Campaign finance
    Criminal Fine: $200,000
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 13(3), April 1, 1996

    96)(tie) Exxon Corporation
    Type of Crime: Environmental
    Criminal Fine: $200,000
    5 Corporate Crime Reporter 12(1), March 25, 1991

    100) Samsung America Inc.
    Type of Crime: Campaign finance
    Criminal Fine: $150,000
    10 Corporate Crime Reporter 6(5), February 12, 1996
    http://www.corporatepredators.org/top100.html#Briefs

    I don't see the new decade as being any better than the last.
    Boeing was recently fined 15 million for selling civilian planes which contained a chip that is used in military applications.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/08/AR2006040801450.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2006
  10. edward

    edward 1,003
    Gold Member

    And even if they do get jail time, they could be set free by the president.
    I have a gut feeling that the trials are being timed in a manner that will get them out of jail shortly after they put in.
     
  11. Pengwuino

    Pengwuino 7,118
    Gold Member

    Has that happened many times before? I'm not up on my history.....
     

  12. Clinton made a few suspect pardons at the end of his term involving tax evasion, IIRC. I don't remember the details. I'm sure there have been other incidents, but none within the reach of my memory.
     
  13. Pengwuino

    Pengwuino 7,118
    Gold Member

    That sounds a little familiar.... barely ringing a bell....
     
  14. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    If they've already been published, why the need to publish them again?
     
  15. What makes anyone think that the Government is less corrupt than Corporations?
     
  16. loseyourname

    loseyourname 3,632
    Staff Emeritus
    Gold Member

    Marc Rich was the major questionable guy that made headlines. He was in for tax evasion and making illegal oil deals with Iran during the hostage crisis, and Clinton let him go hours before his term as president expired. He's since been linked to the oil for food scandal, which has just made it look that much worse.

    Notably, Clinton also pardoned his own half-brother.

    Anyway, what are you gonna do about that? If all of these guys are put away, but Bush then pardons them, the laws and corporate regulations in existence still did their jobs. The only way to keep them from being pardoned would be to immediately execute them, or take away the presidential power to pardon people. A president can be indicted for pardoning people for no good reason (for instance, it was thought that Rich was pardoned because of a huge donation he made to the Clinton Library shortly before being pardoned), but it's very difficult to prove.
     
  17. Yeah that sounds right. Its all kinda hazy in my memory.

    I don't know what to do about it. I was simply responding to a question about corrupt pardons and whether they had happened before.
     
  18. edward

    edward 1,003
    Gold Member

    Thats my point, the criminal cases haven't been published, the DOJ has no budget for the publication of a list of these crimes. Individual entities compile the lists and publish them if and when they find out about them.

    Otherwise they only appear in the news media on a hit or miss basis as there are prosecuted. If the general public could see a list of the yearly illegal activity of large corporations, it might be a real eye opener that would inspire the people to demand more accountability.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2006
  19. Gokul43201

    Gokul43201 11,141
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Speaking of Presidential pardons (though it's a bit off topic) - is there a mechanism to veto/overturn a Presidential pardon ?

    The only one I'm aware of (since it came up in 2000) is that a pardon that has not yet been accepted (the process can take several days, it appears) can be overturned by the President, even if he's not the same President that gave the pardon. So Bush could have, if he chose to, overturned several of Clinton's pardons, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure why he didn't.

    But my question, again, is about some kind of oversight mechanism. Does such a thing exist ?
     
  20. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    The source for the info in your post was a law journal - they have been published.
     
  21. edward

    edward 1,003
    Gold Member

    Not by the DOJ. and the source indicates that. Which also is exactly what I stated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2006
Know someone interested in this topic? Share a link to this question via email, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Have something to add?