Evaluating Physics Master's Programs

[gwnorth]

If you were to rank potential components of a Physics Master's program, which do you think are the most important for preparing you for a PhD: courses, research, project report, thesis?

Also I've seen programs ranging in duration from as short as 9 months all the way up to 2 years. How much preparation do you think is ideal to lay a strong foundation before going into a PhD?

 

[malawi_glenn]

Your master thesis is the most important imo, and not only the final report, but the actual research and interactions with supervisors and researcher in the group you are doing your work in. It is important to get good letters of references.

9 month masters? That was short.. I thought 1 or 2 years was standard in Bologna. 2 years is better, you do research longer time and some courses you take you can use for your PhD diploma usually.

 

[Vanadium 50]

What country is this for? In the US, most students go directly from BS to PhD programs.

 

[gwnorth]

9 month masters? That was short..

Seems common in the UK. That's the length of a Physics Masters at Oxford, Cambridge, and ICL. I thought it was really short too. That's why I'm wondering.

What country is this for? In the US, most students go directly from BS to PhD programs.

Any country other than US where it is common to complete a Master's before a PhD. Primarily UK/Europe.

 

[gwnorth]

Your master thesis is the most important imo, and not only the final report, but the actual research and interactions with supervisors and researcher in the group you are doing your work in. It is important to get good letters of references.

So if you were choosing between:

- 9 month taught master's that is 2/3 courses + 1/3 supervised research project + report (e.g. Cambridge MASt, Oxford MSc., ICL MSc.)

- 12 month version of the above (U of Toronto MSc., U Waterloo MSc.)

- 12 month research based master's with thesis + occasional seminars (e.g. Cambridge MPhil, ICL MRes)

- 2 year traditional master's with courses, research, & thesis (e.g. ETH Zurich MSc., UBC MSc., McGill MSc.)

What would you choose? Is less than 2 years enough?

 

[CrysPhys]

What would you choose? Is less than 2 years enough?

Wouldn't "enough" depend on the subsequent PhD program the student applies to?

 

[gwnorth]

@CrysPhys I suppose you have a point. Presumably each university's program provides sufficient preparation for admission to their own PhD program at the very least. I guess I was surprised by the great amount of variability in the structure of the programs that are offered. I thought they would be more standardized.

Is there such a thing as an ideal model?

 

[malawi_glenn]

What kind of physics are you into? Experimental or theoretical? Astrophysics, cosmology, solid state, atomic physics, lasers, particle physics, nuclear physics?

 

[gwnorth]

@drmalawi I should clarify that I'm not the potential student, but let's say the Holy Grail - Theoretical High Energy Particle Physics.

 

[malawi_glenn]

@drmalawi I should clarify that I'm not the potential student, but let's say the Holy Grail - Theoretical High Energy Particle Physics.

Same as me :) curricula matters a lot. Two Courses on qft, a course on particle phenomenolgy, a course on lie algebra and symmetries is minimal. Also computational methods is very good if it is included. As long as these are included 1 or 2 years does not matter. Cosmology and advanced statistical physics aslo good if included.

 

[gwnorth]

@drmalawi - thank you. Very helpful. At least that gives a basis for comparing programs.

The student in question will have completed 2 years of research in addition to a literature review course and a full year project/thesis course. With this level of practical skills do you think it matters whether they choose a program with a 3 month research project + shorter report vs a 9 month research project + longer dissertation/thesis?

 

[CrysPhys]

@CrysPhys I suppose you have a point. Presumably each university's program provides sufficient preparation for admission to their own PhD program at the very least. I guess I was surprised by the great amount of variability in the structure of the programs that are offered. I thought they would be more standardized.

Is there such a thing as an ideal model?

There is no ideal model. One underlying reason is because there is no standardized PhD program. The flip response is that the longest masters program would be the best: more coursework and more research experience provides better preparation, correct? But it's not that simple because you need to weigh the cost (time and $)/benefit trade-off.

And there are two facets of the masters program (assuming the student is certain of pursuing a PhD program subsequently). Will the longer programs improve the likelihood of the student being accepted into a specific PhD program in the first place? And assuming that the student is accepted into a specific PhD program, will the longer programs improve the likelihood of the student succeeding in that specific program? Well, that depends on the specific PhD program. E.g., in some instances, it might be more beneficial to complete the masters in one year and spend the saved time (the potential second year of a masters) jumping right into the PhD program (assuming the student gets accepted and assuming the PhD program provides suitable training). Too many unknown variables.

ETA: A similar question pops up now and then from US students (where the norm is to enter a PhD program after a 4-yr bachelors program): E.g., I want to pursue a PhD in physics. Is it worthwhile to spend an extra year as an undergrad to complete a double major in physics and math? There is no set answer.

 

[malawi_glenn]

The student in question will have completed 2 years of research in addition to a literature review course and a full year project/thesis course

In what? What was the level and scope of the research?

It could be a good idea to ask directly to student advisors at the universities which the student are considering.

 

[gwnorth]

In what? What was the level and scope of the research?

A variety of different fields - so far he's had 2 internships. The first was a government sponsored 4 month internship in experimental condensed matter physics studying magnetic thin films where he worked with a professor and PhD student helping to set up and run the experiments as well as with the collection and analysis of the data. He's currently finishing up an 8 month placement at a university affiliated company that is commercializing research in thin polymer films conducted by an experimental soft matter physicist at his school. There he has been working in their research and development lab predominantly helping with product testing and data analysis.

These two placements have solidified for him that he much prefers theoretical/data analytic type work so for the 2 semester/8 month senior research project/thesis course he will be doing this coming year he has chosen to work with a professor who conducts theoretical research in AMO as well as Quantum Information. After that he will still have 1 more 8 month internship before he graduates with the field of study and the nature of the placement yet to be determined, but potentially with a professor who is a HEP theorist.

It could be a good idea to ask directly to student advisors at the universities which the student are considering.

That's good advice. It's much easier to evaluate domestic programs. It's more complex determining degree equivalencies for international programs.

 

[gwnorth]

@CrysPhys thank-you for your detailed response. You've given some good things to consider. It sounds like the best approach may be to skip straight to the end goal of the specific PhD program and then work backwards to find the master's program that would best set the student up for admission in terms of content but with also trying maximize time/cost considerations.

 

[vanhees71]

Seems common in the UK. That's the length of a Physics Masters at Oxford, Cambridge, and ICL. I thought it was really short too. That's why I'm wondering.

Any country other than US where it is common to complete a Master's before a PhD. Primarily UK/Europe.

Well, AFAIK in the UK the BSc is 4 years studying. So it makes sense that the MSc takes a shorter time than in Europe, where usually the BSc is 3 years.

 

[gwnorth]

Well, AFAIK in the UK the BSc is 4 years studying. So it makes sense that the MSc takes a shorter time than in Europe, where usually the BSc is 3 years.

If by UK you mean England, then English BSc's are also 3 years in length. They do however do an extra year of high school which I guess is roughly equivalent to the 1st year of university in 4 year degree systems like Scotland and North America. English degrees are more highly specialized though since they don't take general education electives so maybe that accounts somewhat for the shorter length of their Master's degrees. I don't know how that compares to the rest of Europe though.

4 year degrees in England are integrated BSc/MSc's where the 4th "year" is the same as the MSc. that international students complete.