Admissions Getting into a top tier Physics PhD Program with a Masters Degree

[ForTheBit]

I think your odds of success are higher if you expand your list of acceptable schools.

I also think the odds of getting someone else to pay for you to rmedy yoyr deficiencies is low. There's not enough financial aid out there to cover everybody's first degree, which is why there is close to zero for people getting their second degree.

And just to clarify. Are you suggesting that I apply to lower ranked PhD program? Or that I aim for a second bachelors even though there will not be much aid, if any. Or is there another path I am missing? Thank you for taking the time to answer my many questions. This conversation has given me a lot of insight.

 

[gwnorth]

Do these actually exist?

The APS makes a hoopla about theirs, but as far as I can tell, it is less a "progra," and more a matchmaking service between underrepresented populations and schools that want to improbe their demographics. If you are not a member of an under-represented population, their interest seems to fade, If the student gains admission and is unsuccesful, this seems not to be of major concern - everyone says "well, we tried".

Is there any place that has an actual program, and one that tracks oitcomes?

I did a quick Google search for bridge programs specifically and a number came up, mostly in Australia, but when I searched for post-baccs I got hits like:

https://www.physics.utah.edu/graduate-programs/gradadmission/post-bacc-fellowship/

we also have a post-baccalaureate program to support students interested in a PhD in physics or astronomy, but who may need an extra opportunity to develop core skills in research and course work. This is a fully funded one-year program that will engage students in research and upper division undergraduate physics course work. The ideal student for this program is anyone who is: (1) in need of extra course work to prepare for graduate courses, (2) returning to graduate school after years in the workforce, or (3) students interested in transitioning into physics or astronomy from an adjacent field (e.g. engineering, math, etc.).

There are others - https://www.umdgradmap.org/bridge-programs. I don't know about how good their outcomes are though.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don't know about how good their outcomes are though.

I know some of them are intended to "improve diversity", so unless the OP is an URM.

The Utah program looks interesting, as it is structured as a fellowship. It appears to be a way to accept underprepares students and pay them while they catch up, with the intent that they continue on in the graduate program. It's not so clear how strongly this is coupled to the desire to improve diversity, which might or might not be relevant to the OP.

Unfortunately, this has two problems for the OP. It;s a year. and the OP feels he is farther behind than that, and as a feeder to the grad program, Utah, while very good, is not top tier. Another reason why the top tier constraint is goingh to be trouble.

 

[ForTheBit]

I realize that the title is about getting into a top tier school but what it really should’ve been is “what is realistic path to take to become an employable physicist in research or academia”.

 

[hutchphd]

but it certainly improves your odds at getting a research or professor position.

Not if you don't thrive there. If you truly believe that you will compete successfully with this cohort of students then OK. I would advise a more detailed and selective approach. It is far better to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond, and your overall chance of success is enhanced. Any way you do it will require concerted effort and help along the way.

 

[CrysPhys]

I realize that the title is about getting into a top tier school but what it really should’ve been is “what is realistic path to take to become an employable physicist in research or academia”.

Well, now that you've redefined your goal, you need to clarify what you would find acceptable as "an employable physicist in research or academia". If "academia" refers to a professorship in a college or university, will you be satisfied only with a top-tier school (however you define it)? How low down the hierarchy are you willing to go? And what constitutes "research" for you? A position at a government lab? Or an industry lab? Or ...?

And, most critically, an issue that crops up frequently here, what constitutes "an employable physicist" for you? Only if you are working in some narrow area readily identified as physics? What about engineering? Or finance? Or intellectual property law? Or ...?

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think you need to take a cold hard look at the numbers.

Say a professor graduates 10 students during her career. Only one is needed to replace her, so we start with a 10% chance. We don't have a good idea of what an acceptable job is - national labs, industrial labs, SLACs, whatever, so lets double that. So maybe its one out of five with large error bars.

About 2000 people graduate with physics PhDs per year, so that means ~400 acceptable jobs. There are about 12000 physics bachelors awarded annually, so the odds start at 400/12000 or just over 3%.

We can already quibble with these numbers, but it sets the scale - once he gets a physics BS or equivalent (and he isn't even there yet) the odds are in the single digits of percents. Most likely the low single digits.

Am I being discouraging? It's not me. It's the numbers. The same problems crop up is one wants to be a professional baseball player, or oboist, or actor. You have a large number of people competing for a small number of slots - and I haven't even discussed the OPs specific situation. This is the starting point.

The OP now has two hurdles beyond this to overcome:
1. He needs financial support, but most of the available financial support was used up for gis first degree. Nobody disagrees that the OP has a ways to go before he is prepared and a ways to go before he is competitive. The problem is he needs someone else to pay for it.
2. A 3.2 is not competitive.

Now, the OP hopes to get a higher GPA, and do well on the GRE and get great letters etc. But so do the other 12000. And the aspiring athletes and dancers and bassoonists.

Given these numbers, I would say the OP's priorities should be:

1. Define success more broadly
2. Come up with a plan, not just a list of hopes. That plan needs off-ramps, e.g. "If I don't have a GPA of X by time Y, it's time to do something else."
3. Work on a credible financial plan to do this that doesn't rely on other people paying the bills.

 

[ForTheBit]

I have some savings. I have coding experience so I could probably pick up a part time IT job at the university or elsewhere. Hopefully I could pick up a TA or RA job at some point to pay for some of the cost. And if I were to finish in around 2 years the financial blow would not be too significant. I would be happy working in a national lab or university setting. And I have good credit so I could take out private loans if needed to cover any remaining cost.

 

[ForTheBit]

I should add that my academic performance in my first degree was due to a bad work ethic which I have since significantly developed in the past 4 years. That and being heavily distracted by “extra curricular” activities that I am no long distracted by. I am in a fortunate position to have found a comfortable job and developed a marketable skill that I can fall back on.

At this point I am in my mid twenties, older than most starting their physics career but still young enough where I can recover. If things do not pan out becoming a physicist, I will just return to being a software engineer. But I currently feel that if I don’t attempt it I will spend much of my life wondering. So even if things do not pan out I feel I will learn about myself and where I would like my life to go afterwards.

 

[ForTheBit]

As far as my plan. I think that if I am not finding significant success by the end of my first year (~4.0 GPA and loving what i’m doing) then I would probably pull back at that point.

 

[gleem]

The AIP has a whole series of studies about what PhD grads are doing ten years after they graduate.
https://www.aip.org/statistics/phd-plus-10

This should be valuable for you to get a better picture of how others have fared with their degree and
show you the many avenues that are available. You might find a good path to what you think success can be for you and develop a better plan B. I think you want to balance your goal(s) with the probability of attaining it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I could pick up a TA or RA

You keep saying that.

Have you run the numbers? At the nearest non-flashsgip state school - we aren't talking Harvard - tuition, gees, room and board (including summer) is $45,000. Undergraduate TA's and RA's get paid hourly, starting at $12/hour. I will call this $15. So you need to work 3000 hours a year to cover expenses (and that's not counting taxes!). A full-time year is 2000 hours.

So the plan is to

• Works 1.5 full time jobs AND
• Finish 3 years of academic work in 2 AND
• Get straight As will doing this

Does this sound realistic?
The other question is who will pay you to do this? The physis department? You're just starting out - how can you TA a subject you are just learning yourself? Aerospace engineering? They have their own students to worry about.

I don't expect you to come up with a plan instantly; I think you will have to think about it for a good while.

 

[ForTheBit]

I do not mean to say I would obtain a position upon arrival. But after a year of I think I could secure a position. You seem to have ignored the rest of that message as well as the subsequent messages in my response. I have savings, I can work part time until (hopefully) squiring a TA or RA position. And student loans are always an option.

You seem fixated on this idea of “who’s going to pay for this”. I am sure you must realize this, but almost no college student attending state universities are able to “pay” for their degree with academic assistance or in cash. An overwhelming majority of students have to take out student loans, usually federal and private. So this notion that I need to have the cash in hand so to speak is confusing to me. It seems like an outdated idea. College tuition today for first time students or students attempting subsequent degrees is a significant expense that incurs loans.

 

[ForTheBit]

The AIP has a whole series of studies about what PhD grads are doing ten years after they graduate.
https://www.aip.org/statistics/phd-plus-10

This should be valuable for you to get a better picture of how others have fared with their degree and
show you the many avenues that are available. You might find a good path to what you think success can be for you and develop a better plan B. I think you want to balance your goal(s) with the probability of attaining it.

Thank you! This is helpful data to help me plan.

 

[Vanadium 50]

And student loans are always an option.

You would be wise to look at eligibility, limits, and compare those limits to the amount you will need,

 

[ForTheBit]

Thanks, I think I have only borrowed about half of my federal limit.

 

[firearmsguy]

I am in the US. Going to be targeting mid tier MS programs and then hopefully top PhD programs after that. I am looking at schools like UMD, CU Boulder, University of Illinois, Penn State, and Michigan for my masters.

How come CUBoulder UIUC and Michigan are mid-tiers ... plus, they don't offer MS anyway.

 

[jtbell]

I am in the US. Going to be targeting mid tier MS programs and then hopefully top PhD programs after that. I am looking at schools like UMD, CU Boulder, University of Illinois, Penn State, and Michigan for my masters.

How come CUBoulder UIUC and Michigan are mid-tiers

I suspect "top tier" here means the HYPMS schools. I can vouch for Michigan as a fine school from my own experience (PhD), but it's not Harvard et al. (even though I used to have a T-shirt that read "Harvard: the Michigan of the East." )

 

[firearmsguy]

I suspect "top tier" here means the HYPMS schools. I can vouch for Michigan as a fine school from my own experience (PhD), but it's not Harvard et al. (even though I used to have a T-shirt that read "Harvard: the Michigan of the East." )

For top programs, does it really needs to be HYMPS? I think afterall, it depends on the types of research that OP wants to do. Plus, UIUCs doesn't provide MS ...

 

[jtbell]

For top programs, does it really needs to be HYMPS?

I think we should ask @ForTheBit to clarify his perceptions about this.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I used to have a T-shirt that read "Harvard: the Michigan of the East."

I used to have a bumper sticker that said "I brake for animals - except Wolverines.:"

I think that the variation in quality in graduate schools is smaller than the public as a whole thinks it is, I think the top schools vary more by subfield than the public thinks, I think the top schools in some subfields are not the big names (Nuclear experiment, I'd rank Michigan State well above Harvard - Go Spartans! ) and I think that the OP will have a harder time getting into the "lesser schools" than he thinks.