Exhaustive Projectile Analysis

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the design and feasibility of creating a small projectile capable of traveling at the speed and range of a .22 caliber bullet. Participants explore the challenges related to projectile size, material selection, aerodynamic properties, and manufacturing precision, with a focus on both theoretical and practical aspects of projectile design.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that lighter projectiles lose energy to wind resistance more quickly than heavier ones, which could affect their performance at high speeds.
  • There is a recommendation to reduce air drag by adopting a slim shape for the projectile, although this may complicate its management as a gun round.
  • One participant advises researching exterior ballistics and the ballistic coefficient's effect on retained velocity, mentioning specific resources like "Cartridges of the World" for insights on small diameter bullets.
  • Another participant asserts that bullets do not lose material while traveling through the air, countering an earlier claim about disintegration.
  • Suggestions include considering larger caliber projectiles with specific shapes, such as multiple ogives and boat tails, which are preferred by long-range target shooters.
  • Challenges of spin stabilization for smaller projectiles are discussed, noting that smaller calibers require higher spin rates to maintain stability, which can introduce manufacturing difficulties.
  • Precision in manufacturing smaller projectiles is highlighted as a significant challenge, with specific tolerances required for effective performance being much tighter than for larger calibers.
  • Concerns are raised about the feasibility of using 3D printing for producing small projectiles, with some participants suggesting that traditional CNC machining may be more suitable for achieving the necessary precision.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the feasibility and challenges of creating small projectiles, with no consensus reached on the best materials, shapes, or manufacturing methods. Multiple competing perspectives on the implications of size and design choices remain evident throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific definitions of projectile performance, unresolved mathematical considerations regarding drag and stability, and the varying capabilities of manufacturing technologies discussed.

CommissarCold
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Good afternoon.

As part of a personal hobby, I've been trying to design a relatively small projectile that can travel at 'bullet speed' (say, a .22 caliber bullet fired from an appropriately sized gun).

I understand that the overwhelming majority of mass-produced bullets today come in a small variety of bullet lengths and diameters, and tend to be conical in shape. I also understand that the smaller an object gets, the more viscous air is relative to it as it travels. Finally, I understand bullets lose a small amount of their material as they travel, which could result in smaller bullets disintegrating before reaching their target if they were shot with the intent of going at the same speed and distance of larger bullets.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that I had a high quality metal or plastic 3d printer and wanted to make a projectile roughly as large as a bee stinger, and that I intended to launch that projectile to travel the same speed and distance as an average .22 caliber bullet.

Are there any resources out there that provide novel equations and published experiments from others with similar ambitions to guide me in the right direction towards narrowing down a list of materials and shapes that would successfully result in such a projectile?

Thanks.
 
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CommissarCold said:
Summary:: TL;DNR - How small can a projectile get while still being able to travel at the speed and range of, say, a .22 bullet; and, what materials and projectile shapes could make this a reality

Good afternoon.

As part of a personal hobby, I've been trying to design a relatively small projectile that can travel at 'bullet speed' (say, a .22 caliber bullet fired from an appropriately sized gun).

I understand that the overwhelming majority of mass-produced bullets today come in a small variety of bullet lengths and diameters, and tend to be conical in shape. I also understand that the smaller an object gets, the more viscous air is relative to it as it travels. Finally, I understand bullets lose a small amount of their material as they travel, which could result in smaller bullets disintegrating before reaching their target if they were shot with the intent of going at the same speed and distance of larger bullets.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that I had a high quality metal or plastic 3d printer and wanted to make a projectile roughly as large as a bee stinger, and that I intended to launch that projectile to travel the same speed and distance as an average .22 caliber bullet.

Are there any resources out there that provide novel equations and published experiments from others with similar ambitions to guide me in the right direction towards narrowing down a list of materials and shapes that would successfully result in such a projectile?

Thanks.
Hmm, hard question. The problem with a lighter projectile is that it loses more energy to wind resistance compared to a heavier projectile, given the same initial velocity. Lighter bullets tend to have higher muzzle velocities (compare a .270 to a 30-06, for example), but they tend to lose velocity faster than the heavier bullets.

So a first cut at your question would be to reduce air drag as much as possible. That means a very slim shape, which is harder to manage as a gun round.
 
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CommissarCold said:
Are there any resources out there that provide novel equations and published experiments from others with similar ambitions to guide me in the right direction towards narrowing down a list of materials and shapes that would successfully result in such a projectile?
Start with search term exterior ballistics. Then study the effect of ballistic coefficient on retained velocity.

Small diameter bullets have challenges. It is a good idea to learn from those who have experimented with them. There are a number of 17 caliber wildcat cartridges. Search term 17 caliber centerfire will find information. You can also get a copy of Cartridges of the World by Barnes. Barnes discusses a 14 caliber made from a necked down 222 Remington cartridge, and mentions some 12 caliber experiments. That's in my 8th Edition, the newer editions may have more information.

CommissarCold said:
I understand bullets lose a small amount of their material as they travel, which could result in smaller bullets disintegrating before reaching their target if they were shot with the intent of going at the same speed and distance of larger bullets.
No. Bullets do not lose material traveling through the air. Lead bullets at high velocities will leave some lead on the inside of the gun barrel, but not from traveling through the air.
 
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Get a copy of the Speer reloading manual. There are other titles. It provides lots of basics, without advanced math.
Almost too short an answer: I think what you a want to consider are larger caliber projectiles with multiple ogives, and a boat tail. This is what long range target shooters prefer. And it will entail reloading and testing. You may also want to look at getting a chronograph - used to measure muzzle velocity.
 
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There are several practical challenges as the projectile gets smaller:

1. Bullets are spin stabilized - little gyroscopes. The spin keeps them point forward in flight. Bullets that resist air drag really well are long and skinny. But smaller and smaller calibers have larger length to diameter ratios so they need to be spun faster and faster to maintain stability. Small defects in shape and mass distribution are a practical limitation when you spin them faster and faster. These effects make it hard to make 22 caliber (5.56 mm) projectiles as aerodynamic as 30 caliber (7.62 mm), and are also a reason why 50 cal bullets have advantages at longer range.

At some point, it may be advantageous to use a fin stabilized design rather than a spin stabilized design. But that quickly increases your manufacturing and production costs for both the consumable projectiles and for the launcher.

2. Manufacturing smaller things with the same relative precision is challenging. A 0.0001" tolerance in a 22 caliber projectile is 1 part in 2200. An 11 caliber projectile needs a 0.00005" tolerance to have the same relative precision in both the bullet and the barrel. A 2 caliber projectile needs a 0.00001" tolerance. That level of precision is much more difficult and expensive. If projectiles and their launchers are made with lower relative precision, the projectiles tend to "wobble" in flight which significantly increases the drag.
 
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CommissarCold said:
Suppose, for the sake of argument, that I had a high quality metal or plastic 3d printer

Dr. Courtney said:
Manufacturing smaller things with the same relative precision is challenging. A 0.0001" tolerance

0.0001" is 2.54 microns. An Ultimaker S5, a pretty good 3D printer costing $6000, can do 50 microns. You can get a printer that has a better resolution and/or smaller feature size, but it will cost a lot more, and when it can achieve its best performance will be a far more complicated business.

There exist CNC lathes with micron tolerances. They are not cheap. Operating them is not cheap either.

I would rethink whether 3D printing is the way to go.
 
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