Existence Without Time: Immaterial Universe & Time

[Les Sleeth]

Why is it, you insist that micro states might have entropy? Is it that you can then justify some sort of an argument? What’s your reason that they might or could have? I am interested in what you might think. Does it have something to do with your theory?

What I am saying has nothing to do with my theory.

How many atoms do you have to bunch together to simulate a entropic state?

I don't understand why you would think bunching atoms would simulate an entropic state.

Maybe I should make sure we are talking about the same thing. Entropy was first applied to descripe energy transformations in thermodynamics, and now we are loosely using it to describe the general increase in disorder that results as the universe changes.

In the micro world, nuclear transitions are just jumps from one quantum state to another, just like atomic transitions, I think not entropy.

This is wrong Rader. There are no transitions without entropy, this is fundamental to the 2nd law.

Think about it, if the microstate weren't entropic, there would be no universe as we know it, and certainly no life. Consider the fusion that goes on in the sun. Although hydrogen atoms are fused to create helium, it is at the expense of an overall increase in disorder evidenced by the sun's heat, the solar wind, etc. Without that microstate entropy there would be no sun, and without the sun no life. For zero entropy, it seems to me like the universe would have to exist at absolute zero, so nothing would be happening.

Consider beta decay where the disintegration of an atom's neutron occurs. It is caused by the weak force, one of four fundamental forces, which means the weak force is fundamental to the microworld.

After background radiation was discovered it was observed that as the universe expands, that radiation's wave length stretches. This lengthing is accompanied by a slower oscillation rate, the slower oscillation rate means energy was surrendered, and that in turns tells us background microwave radiation contributes to the universe's disorder.

 

[Rader]

What I am saying has nothing to do with my theory.

OK then, let's just back step a moment. This thread is about the existence without time. We agree, time and space, entropy and existence are all part of the physical macro world. Were we disagree is, in the micro world, I say time and space is but without entropy and there is a existence there also. You say there is entropy in the micro world so fill in the rest... is there time? is there space? is there a existence? If entropy exists in the micro world, then it is no different than the macro world, except for the fact we can not see, that small.. Is that what you want to argue?

I don't understand why you would think bunching atoms would simulate an entropic state.

Physical systems are a bunch of atoms. Physical systems show entropy. Physical systems are not individual atoms.

Maybe I should make sure we are talking about the same thing. Entropy was first applied to describe energy transformations in thermodynamics, and now we are loosely using it to describe the general increase in disorder that results as the universe changes.

You can use any definition below, it does not change the meaning just adds to it.
For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. A hypothetical tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.

This is wrong Rader. There are no transitions without entropy, this is fundamental to the 2nd law.

There is no violation of the 2nd law in micro states. You can not isolate a position or velocity in a micro state, there are only probable vectors. There is no information loss, information is in a nowhere state. You can not have entropy if there is no information loss and no lost information means, no heat loss. Entropy is a manifestation of physical world. This is the mystery, how information in a nowhere state, fixes its coordinates to become the physical world. This is what my last post is about, there is "something more", something has to project a "consciousness" to collapse the wave function.

Think about it, if the microstate weren't entropic, there would be no universe as we know it, and certainly no life.

You talk about the microstate as if it was a physical state, it is not that way. There would be no universe and no life it there was no physical world but that does not mean there is no existence in the micro world.

Consider the fusion that goes on in the sun. Although hydrogen atoms are fused to create helium, it is at the expense of an overall increase in disorder evidenced by the sun's heat, the solar wind, etc. Without that microstate entropy there would be no sun, and without the sun no life. For zero entropy, it seems to me like the universe would have to exist at absolute zero, so nothing would be happening.

The sun is a physical structure and the entropy it shows is treated as such. You are treating physical structures as if they were micro states. The universe is a physical structure and will show entropy, loose information and heat and eventually reach absolute zero, evolving toward a state of inert uniformity. You can not pinpoint position, velocity or entropy of a micro state; you have to look at it first. I said this in my last post, humans can not observe micro states, only the machines that observe them and then the projection is us though the machine, to do the projection of a consciousnesses. Until that happens there is no physical.

Consider beta decay where the disintegration of an atom's neutron occurs. It is caused by the weak force, one of four fundamental forces, which means the weak force is fundamental to the micro world.

The weak force, is fundamental to the micro world. What is not known fundamentally is why certain combinations of neutrons, proton and electrons, in different energy states, demonstrate gas=like, liquid=like, solid,=like metal=like or radioactive=like properties, when they are physical structures and when you examine them individually you can not come to that conclusion.

After background radiation was discovered it was observed that as the universe expands, that radiation's wave length stretches. This lengthing is accompanied by a slower oscillation rate, the slower oscillation rate means energy was surrendered, and that in turns tells us background microwave radiation contributes to the universe's disorder.

That tell us the universe shows entropy. That all.
We can not get to talk about what you want to until you can understand there is no entropy in micro states. Or you will not understand anything else I want to say beyond that point.

 

[Les Sleeth]

OK then, let's just back step a moment. This thread is about the existence without time. We agree, time and space, entropy and existence are all part of the physical macro world. Were we disagree is, in the micro world, I say time and space is but without entropy and there is a existence there also. You say there is entropy in the micro world so fill in the rest... is there time? is there space? is there a existence? If entropy exists in the micro world, then it is no different than the macro world, except for the fact we can not see, that small.. Is that what you want to argue?

. . . . We can not get to talk about what you want to until you can understand there is no entropy in micro states. Or you will not understand anything else I want to say beyond that point.

I just don't think I understand what you mean by "microworld." When you said "The mircroworld is not observable except through maybe a electron microscope" I assumed you were talking about particle physics.

I have in the past distinguished between whatever is the essence or ground state of physicalness, and the processes and structures of physicalness.

If by "microworld" you mean that which is the ground state from which everything physical arises, then I do not think it is subject to time or space limitations, as I have said many times.

If by microworld you mean ANYTHING physical no matter how small -- from quarks and nuclear forces to any and all quantum processes -- then I do think every bit of that is subject to limitations of time and space. That is, it is temporal and it is functioning within a finite area we call space. I have only been using the terms "time" and "space" to describe the temporary and confined spatial characteristics of physicalness.

I can say it another way. I think every single aspect of the physical universe will at one point in the future disappear and blend into an undifferentiated, unstructured essense-like condition that is time-less and spatially unbounded. If that is what you mean by the microworld, then we might be talking about the same thing from different perspectives.

 

[Rader]

I just don't think I understand what you mean by "micro world" When you said "The micro world is not observable except through maybe a electron microscope" I assumed you were talking about particle physics.

The micro world is that which neither has a precise position or velocity an entangled state of nowhere ness. Only when it is observed, can we say, the diameter of an atom ranges from 1 x 10-10 m to 5 x 10-10 m. We then have the micro world of physical structures. The human eye is coherent to exchange information with a photon but only that which projects can interpret this information. The projector would have to be a consciousness.

I have in the past distinguished between whatever is the essence or ground state of physical ness, and the processes and structures of physical ness.

This is where I am not sure I understand you completely. Essence as I see it, has to be differentiated from the micro world and the micro world differentiated from macro world.

If by "micro world" you mean that which is the ground state from which everything physical arises, then I do not think it is subject to time or space limitations, as I have said many times.

In you mean by the ground state the quantum micro world, then yes, if you refer to the ground state as essence no. I think we mean something quite different here. Essence is the last "WHY" that ultimate "Something More", quantum states, the micro world are the tools and the physical structures, the macro world, we assume exists, the result. That’s the only way you can explain the unexplainable, all the variables are in quantum states, "something more" has to do a projection, into the quantum micro world.

If by micro world you mean ANYTHING physical no matter how small -- from quarks and nuclear forces to any and all quantum processes -- then I do think every bit of that is subject to limitations of time and space. That is, it is temporal and it is functioning within a finite area we call space. I have only been using the terms "time" and "space" to describe the temporary and confined spatial characteristics of physical ness.

I agree that once a postulated projection of observation occurs, you have a micro world of physical states. I understand your use and a have been trying to differentiate between quantum and physical states but understand me, I think that "Something More" is above and beyond both.

I can say it another way. I think every single aspect of the physical universe will at one point in the future disappear and blend into an undifferentiated, unstructured essence-like condition that is time-less and spatially unbounded. If that is what you mean by the micro world, then we might be talking about the same thing from different perspectives.

This is in line with what is currently observed in cosmology. The universe will continue to expand; physical time, without physical structures will no longer be able to be measured. Space will have stretched to infinity but there will be no physical structures to measure inside empty space. What concerns me is what will all the physical structures, be converted into really? Several things we can assume, time and space would be in very similar initial conditions, that the micro world was in, there would be no entropy, the difference, information will have infected the universe. All quantum states will have eventually collapsed into physical structures and those structures, entropic ally evolved, into a all knowing state. The difference would be that information, would be not in nowhere land, probability states, but everywhere land, like you say, an unstructured essence-like condition. Of course you realize that for this to have any validity, physical structures would have to be, a little piece of essence and eventually all the pieces, all of what essence is.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Of course you realize that for this to have any validity, physical structures would have to be, a little piece of essence and eventually all the pieces, all of what essence is.

Yes, this is pretty much what I've been saying all along.

This is where I am not sure I understand you completely. Essence as I see it, has to be differentiated from the micro world and the micro world differentiated from macro world.

Okay.

If you mean by the ground state the quantum micro world, then yes, if you refer to the ground state as essence no. I think we mean something quite different here. Essence is the last "WHY" that ultimate "Something More", quantum states, the micro world are the tools and the physical structures, the macro world, we assume exists, the result. That’s the only way you can explain the unexplainable, all the variables are in quantum states, "something more" has to do a projection, into the quantum micro world.

I think we are mostly agreeing. Let me see if I can explain what assumptions I've been arguing from which seems to have created our disagreement.

The first most important point: we've been debating if time is necessary to existence. I didn't assume that had to be limited to a specific type of existence, but rather I've been talking about bottom-line existence, or what is left after all structure and function are removed from any particular “thing.” To me, the concept of "absolute essence" we seem to be tolerating in our discussion represents that, and everything else comes after.

I have been describing "existence" looking at it from my spot here in the universe. I have been reasoning from the assumption that there are several levels of existence involved between base-line existence and human existence. It seems you have added an additional level you are labeling the "microworld," which I didn't single out for a "level" in my assumptions. Here is how I interpret the levels of existence, including yours:

Level 1. Starting at the most basic level, base-line existence I see as some unstructured, uncreated and always-existing essence -- I've called it a sort of vibrant "illumination" in the past. I see it as existing in some infinite continuum, as unable to not exist, and as fundamentally UNconscious.

Level 2. This existence spot is the tough one to defend. I think consciousness accidentally developed in the unconscious ground state existence continuum (I’ll refer to it as “General” consciousness). This General consciousness may have found a way to eternally continue since its inception, but it has not always co-existed with the absolute stuff. I propose this General consciousness has played a role in the formation of our universe.

Level 3. However it happened, the accidentally-initiated General helped shape the base-line stuff to create the physical universe (as I suggested in another thread, it appears like the basis of structure is base-line stuff compression combined with a variety of oscillatory dynamics). This makes more sense to me than the physical universe developing accidentally first, and then life and bio-consciousness accidentally coming about without the extra organizing help life and bio-consciousness in particular seem to need to have evolved here on Earth.

Level 4. Inside the universe, General consciousness emerged from biology. With this model, General consciousness starts on one end and then by evolving ever more sophisticated nervous systems is able to emerge more and more. Each individual biological system (with a nervous system) provides a means for individuating a single consciousness from the General consciousness. Again, this makes more sense to me than attempting to account for something so un-physicalistic as consciousness with nothing but brain physiology and functionality.


Okay, now here’s where I think we might find the area where we’ve been not understanding each other. From your last post, and after recalling some of our exchanges about Gao Shan and QSC, I got the impression that by “microworld” you mean that part of the General consciousness that is present in the structure of matter, especially evolving matter.

For example, you said, “All quantum states will have eventually collapsed into physical structures and those structures, entropically evolved, into a all knowing state. The difference would be that information, would be not in nowhere land, probability states, but everywhere land, like you say, an unstructured essence-like condition.” It sounds to me like you believe to produce matter, a portion of the General consciousness has shaped itself into that, and so when we get down to the quantum level, and to the space between structures, there we will find the “information” provided by General consciousness that makes matter behave as it does. And that is where Gao Shan and others are looking for General consciousness, in those quantum spaces.

If that is what you mean, and if you think something significant to humanity will be found there, then I suspect we still don’t agree about that significance. Assuming that’s what you mean by “microworld,” I say the only information that would there is a “bit,” which is solely suited to the particular quantum function it is guiding. If the QSC researchers are successful, it might help them build more powerful computers or reactors, but I don’t think it will do a thing to enlighten human consciousness. While “bits” of information might make our intellects smarter if we discover them, my experience with my own consciousness has been that it is most empowered by the holistic experience of the greater General consciousness found, not in my atoms, but in the heart of my being.

Getting back to the original subject of time, space and existence, it might be more clear to you now why I think time and space, are meaningless at the level of absolute existence. In this universe, of course they are very meaningful to existence since the universe, we humans, and the consciousness we presently experience wouldn’t be here without time and space.

 

[Rader]

Yes, this is pretty much what I've been saying all along.
I think we are mostly agreeing. Let me see if I can explain what assumptions I've been arguing from which seems to have created our disagreement.

OK

The first most important point: we've been debating if time is necessary to existence. I didn't assume that had to be limited to a specific type of existence, but rather I've been talking about bottom-line existence, or what is left after all structure and function are removed from any particular “thing.” To me, the concept of "absolute essence" we seem to be tolerating in our discussion represents that, and everything else comes after.

Yes

I have been describing "existence" looking at it from my spot here in the universe. I have been reasoning from the assumption that there are several levels of existence involved between base-line existence and human existence. It seems you have added an additional level you are labeling the "micro world," which I didn't single out for a "level" in my assumptions. Here is how I interpret the levels of existence, including yours:

I see you give a special place for the moment of the origin of organic life. Whereas, I give a special place to the "micro world," where particle consciousness begins.

Level 1. Starting at the most basic level, base-line existence I see as some unstructured, uncreated and always-existing essence -- I've called it a sort of vibrant "illumination" in the past. I see it as existing in some infinite continuum, as unable to not exist, and as fundamentally UNconscious.

If I was to describe what I feel when I look into a star studded black sky with the Milky Way winding through it, yes that would be my feel of it. Although I can never be sure that my feel is even a close guess of whatever that is, I just like to think it is.

Level 2. This existence spot is the tough one to defend. I think consciousness accidentally developed in the unconscious ground state existence continuum (I’ll refer to it as “General” consciousness). This General consciousness may have found a way to eternally continue since its inception, but it has not always co-existed with the absolute stuff. I propose this General consciousness has played a role in the formation of our universe.

You should know the way I think by now, analytically. Accidents do not correspond to what we observe in our physical universe. Therefore there is no reason for me to believe anything prior to it, was an accident. I realize that I am making an analogy of something not physical, "a consciousness", to something that is "physical", so let me say this. So that which is not physical would have a purpose, the way things out to be. That which is physical, would have a reason, what is to be. We humans comprehend a evolution of both in this assumed physical world, so I assume this is correct, based on my own experience.

Level 3. However it happened, the accidentally-initiated General helped shape the base-line stuff to create the physical universe (as I suggested in another thread, it appears like the basis of structure is base-line stuff compression combined with a variety of oscillatory dynamics). This makes more sense to me than the physical universe developing accidentally first, and then life and bio-consciousness accidentally coming about without the extra organizing help life and bio-consciousness in particular seem to need to have evolved here on Earth.

Now this is where the quantum micro world, might hold the secrets we wish to discover. What any philosopher would just love to due, is solve the "hard problem". Do brain parts create consciousness or does consciousness use brain parts to perceive the world the way we assume it exists? When our computers are powerful enough and they will be. When we have built quantum computers and we will. When we understand that the human brain works like a quantum state and we will.Then we can investigate quantum entangled states of high complexity, like what is found in humans. What we will have to confirm at a deeper level, how does a projection of unitary consciousness into a quantum state produce the physical world.

Level 4. Inside the universe, General consciousness emerged from biology. With this model, General consciousness starts on one end and then by evolving ever more sophisticated nervous systems is able to emerge more and more. Each individual biological system (with a nervous system) provides a means for individuating a single consciousness from the General consciousness. Again, this makes more sense to me than attempting to account for something so un-physical as consciousness with nothing but brain physiology and functionality.

Well this is where we will have to have separate discussion someday, on bio-genesis. So where is this moment?, what happens?, what initial conditions have to be necessary for organic life to exist? What entangled quantum states evolve to meet the conditions? I think here you must separate the tool from the tool maker. The conditions are, that is, the projector "a consciousness" has looked enough times at the system, to create a complexity, sufficient to experience through, at that level. I will leave you with this to think about. Now you might wonder, why an octopus has a eye like a human. Yet it is suppose to be way down the evolutionary chain.

Okay, now here’s where I think we might find the area where we’ve been not understanding each other. From your last post, and after recalling some of our exchanges about Gao Shan and QSC, I got the impression that by “micro world” you mean that part of the General consciousness that is present in the structure of matter, especially evolving matter.

For example, you said, “All quantum states will have eventually collapsed into physical structures and those structures, entropic ally evolved, into a all knowing state. The difference would be that information, would be not in nowhere land, probability states, but everywhere land, like you say, an unstructured essence-like condition.” It sounds to me like you believe to produce matter, a portion of the General consciousness has shaped itself into that, and so when we get down to the quantum level, and to the space between structures, there we will find the “information” provided by General consciousness that makes matter behave as it does. And that is where Gao Shan and others are looking for General consciousness, in those quantum spaces.

If that is what you mean, and if you think something significant to humanity will be found there, then I suspect we still don’t agree about that significance. Assuming that’s what you mean by “micro world,” I say the only information that would there is a “bit,” which is solely suited to the particular quantum function it is guiding. If the QSC researchers are successful, it might help them build more powerful computers or reactors, but I don’t think it will do a thing to enlighten human consciousness. While “bits” of information might make our intellects smarter if we discover them, my experience with my own consciousness has been that it is most empowered by the holistic experience of the greater General consciousness found, not in my atoms, but in the heart of my being.

When we get that far and we will. We will have understood how bits of information in quantum states build the world the way we assume it exists but much more important we will have confirmed that, there is or there is not only "one consciousness". The "hard problem" in physics and philosophy will have been resolved.

Getting back to the original subject of time, space and existence, it might be more clear to you now why I think time and space, are meaningless at the level of absolute existence. In this universe, of course they are very meaningful to existence since the universe, we humans, and the consciousness we presently experience wouldn’t be here without time and space.

I believe I understand you.

 

[Alberto Knox]

To perceive an entity, you must perceive that it is.

Existence exists, there are things. Existence is identity, to be is to be what you are. Concepts are crucial to our existence. Time is an important concept that we must perceive.

We perceive the world through the past, move and change, and what dies. These changes differ, and some endure more than others, i.e. "how long" - is time.

Every existent can be measured by time, i.e. that man is 50 years old. Time measures quantities. Long story short, time is a measure of existence.Time is a measure of existence, but nevertheless we measure time by means of change, by means of things which come to be and pass away, and there is a reason for this. Something which always existed or existed unchangebly would provide no time markers for us to count, and measurement ultimately reduces to counting. Something that always existed and never ends cannot be measured by time. It cannot exist.

Can we speed up time?

Aristotle believed that time was a measure of rates. People thought that time could change its rate. Aristotle thought it was absurd to think that time could speed up or slow down. Time is not a change, and cannot change, because if time could change, it would not be time. Existence is what we measure by time.

Cheers,

Alberto