Expectation value of composite observable in singlet state

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the expectation value of the composite observable \(\sigma_x\tau_y\) for a system of two spins in the singlet state. The original poster references Leonard Susskind's work on quantum mechanics and expresses confusion over the results obtained from their calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to compute the expectation value using different methods, including direct calculation and matrix representation. They express concern over obtaining complex results and question the validity of their calculations.

Discussion Status

Some participants offer guidance by suggesting a review of signs in the calculations. There is an acknowledgment of potential errors in the original poster's approach, and a participant notes that the expectation value might imply a lack of correlation between the observables despite the entangled state.

Contextual Notes

The original poster mentions the absence of solutions in the referenced book and expresses a desire for clarity on the expectation value, indicating a learning context where they seek to understand the implications of their findings.

ostrich2
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Homework Statement



I've been reading Leonard Susskind's Theoretical Minimum volume on QM, and enjoying it quite a bit - the book doesn't include exercise solutions at the end though, and if they exist online for this volume I haven't been able to find them. (Perhaps if such solutions were accumulated somewhere they'd be of interest to readers of the book).

One exercise asks you, given a system of two spins in the singlet state (|sing \rangle = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} (|ud \rangle - |du \rangle) to calculate the expectation value for the observable \sigma_x\tau_y (with one observer measuring their spin along the x-axis and the other observing along the y).

I've been getting some anomalous results trying to do this calculation, I'm wondering if someone might be able to spot where things are going wrong.

Homework Equations



<br /> |sing \rangle = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} (|ud \rangle - |du \rangle) \\<br /> \langle sing| = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} (\langle ud| - \langle du|) \\<br /> <br /> \tau_y|ud \rangle = -i|uu \rangle \\<br /> \tau_y|du\rangle = i|dd\rangle \\<br /> <br /> \sigma_x|dd\rangle = |ud\rangle \\<br /> \sigma_x|uu\rangle = |du\rangle<br /> <br />

The Attempt at a Solution



First,
<br /> \langle\sigma_x\tau_y\rangle = \langle sing|\sigma_x\tau_y|sing\rangle \\<br />

<br /> \begin{align}<br /> <br /> \sigma_x\tau_y|sing\rangle &amp;= \sigma_x[\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}(-i |uu\rangle + i |dd\rangle)]\\<br /> &amp;=\frac{i}{\sqrt{2}}\sigma_x(|dd\rangle - |uu\rangle)\\<br /> &amp;=\frac{i}{\sqrt{2}}(|ud\rangle - |du\rangle)\\<br /> \end{align}<br />

Then completing the inner product and taking the product of othogonal vectors as 0,

<br /> \begin{align}<br /> \langle\sigma_x\tau_y\rangle &amp;= \frac{i}{\sqrt{2}}\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}(\langle ud| - \langle du|)(|ud\rangle - |du\rangle)\\<br /> &amp;=\frac{i}{2}(1-0-0+1)\\<br /> &amp;=i<br /> \end{align}<br />

That can't be right since the expectation value of an observable surely has to be real. So I decided to try an alternate method, using the trace of the projection operator of sing> and the observable, i.e.

<br /> \begin{align}<br /> \langle sing|\sigma_x\tau_y|sing\rangle &amp;= Tr~ |sing\rangle~ \langle sing|~\sigma_x\tau_y\\<br /> &amp;=\sum_{i}\langle i|sing\rangle\langle sing|\sigma_x\tau_y|i\rangle\\<br /> \end{align} \\<br /> \text{i ranging over the basis vectors uu,ud,du,uu}<br />

Since <uu|sing> and <dd|sing> are both 0, this has two terms:
<br /> \langle sing|\sigma_x\tau_y|sing\rangle = \langle ud|sing\rangle\langle sing|\sigma_x\tau_y|ud\rangle + \langle du|sing\rangle\langle sing|\sigma_x\tau_y | du\rangle\\<br />

<br /> \langle ud|sing\rangle = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} \\<br /> \langle du|sing\rangle = \frac{-1}{\sqrt{2}} \\<br /> <br /> \begin{align}<br /> \langle sing|\sigma_x\tau_y &amp;= \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}(\langle dd| - \langle uu|) \tau_y \\<br /> &amp;= \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}(-i \langle du| - i\langle ud|)\\<br /> &amp;= \frac{-i}{\sqrt{2}}(\langle ud| + \langle du|)\\<br /> \end{align}<br />

<br /> \begin{align}<br /> \langle sing|\sigma_x\tau_y|sing\rangle &amp;= \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\frac{-i}{\sqrt{2}} \langle(\langle ud| + \langle du|) | ud\rangle\\<br /> &amp;+ \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\frac{-i}{\sqrt{2}}\langle(\langle ud| + \langle du|) | du\rangle\\<br /> &amp;= \frac{-i}{2}(1+1)\\<br /> &amp;= -i<br /> \end{align}<br />

That still doesn't look right. Finally, I tried working out the matrix representation of |sing\rangle \langle sing | \sigma_x\tau_y directly:

By Kronecker product,

<br /> \sigma_x\tau_y = <br /> \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; i\\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; i &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; -i &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> i &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br />

For the matrix representation of |sing\rangle \langle sing|, the i,jth entry in the matrix is
\langle sing|j\rangle \langle i|sing\rangle

Since |sing> is a superposition of |ud> and |du>, the inner products of |sing> with |uu> and |dd> are all 0,
<br /> \langle sing|ud\rangle \langle ud|sing\rangle = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} = \frac{1}{2} \\<br /> \langle sing|ud\rangle \langle du|sing\rangle = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} \frac{-1}{\sqrt{2}} = \frac{-1}{2} \\<br /> \langle sing|du\rangle \langle ud|sing\rangle = \frac{-1}{\sqrt{2}} \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} = \frac{-1}{2} \\<br /> \langle sing|du\rangle \langle du|sing\rangle = \frac{-1}{\sqrt{2}} \frac{-1}{\sqrt{2}} = \frac{1}{2} \\<br />

So |sing\rangle \langle sing| =<br /> \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; \frac{1}{2} &amp; \frac{-1}{2} &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; \frac{-1}{2} &amp; \frac{1}{2} &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br />

<br /> <br /> |sing\rangle \langle sing|\sigma_x\tau_y = <br /> \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; i\\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; i &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; -i &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> i &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> \end{pmatrix}<br /> <br /> \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; \frac{1}{2} &amp; \frac{-1}{2} &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; \frac{-1}{2} &amp; \frac{1}{2} &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> \end{pmatrix} =<br /> \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; \frac{i}{2} &amp; \frac{i}{2} &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; \frac{-i}{2} &amp; \frac{-i}{2} &amp; 0\\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0\\<br /> \end{pmatrix} <br /> <br />

So the trace consisting of the diagonal elements, Tr = \frac{i}{2} - \frac{i}{2} = 0

So 0 at least makes sense as an expectation value, although I'm not too sure now if it's the correct one.
 
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Hello, ostrich2. Welcome to PF!

<br /> \sigma_x\tau_y|sing\rangle = \sigma_x[\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}(-i |uu\rangle + i |dd\rangle)<br /> <br />

Check your signs on the right hand side of this equation.
 
TSny said:
Hello, ostrich2. Welcome to PF!



Check your signs on the right hand side of this equation.

Aha - thanks, just looking at \tau_y|sing\rangle, I think the correct result is:

\tau_y|sing\rangle = \frac{-i}{\sqrt{2}}(|uu\rangle + |dd\rangle)

So, the eventual result is

\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\frac{-i}{\sqrt{2}}(\langle ud| - \langle du|)(|du\rangle + |ud\rangle)

which gives 0. Let me go back to the other calculation - there must be some similar sign problem there as well.

Now I'm scratching my head a bit about the result - this seems to imply that even though the system is in an entangled state, and the individual expectation values \langle\sigma_x\rangle and \langle\tau_y\rangle are still 0, the correlation is also 0, almost as if it was a product state?
 
Hi ostrich2, sorry for this rather late reply :frown:

I'd certainly expect a correlation between \sigma_z and \tau_z for the singlet state, but I don't see why you think there would be a correlation between \sigma_x and \tau_y.

Roughly speaking: knowing what \sigma_x is gives you no information whatsoever about what \tau_y is.

[disclaimer - I didn't check your calculations, but I think your answer is correct]
 

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