Explaining Why a Set with Operation * Does Not Define a Group

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding why certain sets with defined operations do not form groups, focusing on properties such as closure, commutativity, and associativity. Participants analyze specific composition tables and explore the implications of non-associativity in group theory.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a composition table for the set {a, b, c, d} and claims that the operation is closed and commutative, but struggles with the associativity property, particularly with the operation b * (d * a).
  • Another participant suggests there may be a misprint in the example, noting that b * b = c, which contradicts the claim of non-associativity.
  • A different example involving the set {0, 2, 4} is introduced, where a participant expresses confusion about why this set also does not form a group due to non-associativity.
  • One participant provides a specific calculation to illustrate potential non-associativity by comparing (2*2)*4 and 2*(2*4), suggesting that the operation does not behave as expected in a group.
  • Another participant discusses the implications of having no unique solutions for equations in the context of group operations, indicating a deeper issue with the operation defined on the set.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the associativity property and whether the examples provided accurately demonstrate non-associativity. There is no consensus on the interpretations of the examples or the definitions of group properties.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific examples and calculations that may depend on interpretations of the operation and the definitions of group properties. Some calculations are presented without complete verification, leading to unresolved questions about associativity.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and individuals studying abstract algebra, particularly those interested in group theory and the properties that define groups.

coderot
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Hi,

I'm having trouble understanding why the follow composition table for the set \left\{ a, b, c, d \right\} with operation * doesn't define a group.
<br /> \begin{array}{c|cccc}<br /> * &amp; a &amp; b &amp; c &amp; d \\ \hline<br /> a &amp; c &amp; d &amp; a &amp; b \\ <br /> b &amp; d &amp; c &amp; b &amp; a \\ <br /> c &amp; a &amp; b &amp; c &amp; d \\ <br /> d &amp; b &amp; a &amp; d &amp; c \\ <br /> \end{array}<br />
Firstly I know that the operation is closed since every element in the set is in the table. The operation is commutative because it's symmetrical about the leading diagonal and the identity element is c (the third row).

However according to the example the operation isn't associative. This is what I'm having trouble with. According to the book (New Comprehensive Mathematics for 'O' Level) the example says that b * (d * a) = b * b = b and this is what I don't understand. Why is the result of this operation not c?. From the table is says that b * b = c. Any help please thanks.
 
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It looks like there is a misprint. As you say, from the table b * b = c and as (b * d) * a = a * a = c this not an example of non-associativity.
 
That is what I thought. However there is another example of this in the accompanying exercises. Here is the table. I'm asked to state why this isn't a group.
<br /> \begin{array}{c|ccc}<br /> * &amp; 0 &amp; 2 &amp; 4 \\ \hline<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2 &amp; 4 \\ <br /> 2 &amp; 2 &amp; 0 &amp; 2 \\ <br /> 4 &amp; 4 &amp; 2 &amp; 0 \\<br /> \end{array}<br />
Again the result states that the set \left\{0, 2, 4\right\} isn't a group for this operation because is isn't associative. Which makes me believe that I'm not understanding something about this property of groups.
 
coderot said:
That is what I thought. However there is another example of this in the accompanying exercises. Here is the table. I'm asked to state why this isn't a group.
<br /> \begin{array}{c|ccc}<br /> * &amp; 0 &amp; 2 &amp; 4 \\ \hline<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2 &amp; 4 \\ <br /> 2 &amp; 2 &amp; 0 &amp; 2 \\ <br /> 4 &amp; 4 &amp; 2 &amp; 0 \\<br /> \end{array}<br />
Again the result states that the set \left\{0, 2, 4\right\} isn't a group for this operation because is isn't associative. Which makes me believe that I'm not understanding something about this property of groups.

(2x4)x4 = 2x4 = 2
2x(4x4) = 2x0 = 0
 
Another example: Try (2*2)*4 vs 2*(2*4).

In an actual group, the equation g*X = h has the unique solution X = g^{-1} *h
In this set, the equation 2*X = 4 has no solution.
In a real group you can multiply an equation on both sides by the same group element without changing the solution set.

So 2*X = 4 would have the solution X = 2^{-1}*4 = 2*4

Substituting this back into the equation 2*X = 4 we have
2*(2*4) = 4 which suggested to me that there is some problem with evaluating the product 2*2*4.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your responses guys. You've cleared this one up for me. :)
 

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