Falling to a Star With Varying Acceleration

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the problem of calculating the time it takes for an object of negligible mass to fall to the surface of a neutron star, considering varying gravitational acceleration. Participants explore different mathematical approaches, including differential equations and conservation of energy, while discussing the complexities involved in the calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a formula involving integration to calculate the time of fall, but expresses uncertainty about the derivation process.
  • Another participant provides a detailed derivation using differential equations and conservation of energy, presenting multiple equations and substitutions to illustrate their approach.
  • Some participants inquire about the validity of using conservation of energy as an alternative method for solving the problem.
  • A participant questions whether dividing distance by time can yield the speed of entry, leading to further discussion on the appropriate methods for determining speed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best method to solve the problem, with multiple competing views on the use of differential equations versus conservation of energy. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the most effective approach.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding assumptions made about the mass of the falling object and the initial conditions. The derivations presented depend on specific definitions and mathematical steps that are not fully resolved.

Tom MS
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Take an object of negligible mass that is dropped from rest 2 kilometers away from a neutron star of mass 1.989*10^30 kilograms (1 solar mass) and radius 7,802 meters. How long will it take the object to reach the surface of the neutron star?

I'm not terrible at calculus, but I know for a fact that a problem such as this involves some integration that I haven't been able to pin down.
 
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[tex]t = \frac{ \cos^{-1} \left ( \sqrt{\frac{x}{r}} \right ) + \sqrt{\frac{x}{r} \left ( 1-\frac{x}{r} \right ) }}{\sqrt{2 \mu}} r^{\frac{3}{2}}[/tex]

Where x is the radius of your neutron star
r is the distance of the object from the center of the neutron star
[itex]\mu[/itex] is equal to G(M+m) with M+m being the sum of the neutron star and object masses. (if m is really small with respect to M, you can ignore it without sacrificing accuracy too much.)
 
Janus said:
[tex]t = \frac{ \cos^{-1} \left ( \sqrt{\frac{x}{r}} \right ) + \sqrt{\frac{x}{r} \left ( 1-\frac{x}{r} \right ) }}{\sqrt{2 \mu}} r^{\frac{3}{2}}[/tex]

Where x is the radius of your neutron star
r is the distance of the object from the center of the neutron star
[itex]\mu[/itex] is equal to G(M+m) with M+m being the sum of the neutron star and object masses. (if m is really small with respect to M, you can ignore it without sacrificing accuracy too much.)
Thank you! Do you have a derivation for this that I could look at?
 
Tom MS said:
Thank you! Do you have a derivation for this that I could look at?

There was one on here but it was a long time ago and I can't find it. I've got the solution written down if you are interested.

How much maths do you know? It's really just a solution to a differential equation. It's not too hard but involves a trick or two.
 
PeroK said:
There was one on here but it was a long time ago and I can't find it. I've got the solution written down if you are interested.

How much maths do you know? It's really just a solution to a differential equation. It's not too hard but involves a trick or two.
I'm taking high school level AP calculus right now, but I'd be happy to see the solution! In terms of differential equations, I only know how to solve simple linear differential equations and separable differential equations.

Also, I just realized. Why couldn't I just use conservation of energy?
 
Tom MS said:
I'm taking high school level AP calculus right now, but I'd be happy to see the solution! In terms of differential equations, I only know how to solve simple linear differential equations and separable differential equations.

Also, I just realized. Why couldn't I just use conservation of energy?

Yes, you can use conservation of energy, but that's not all you need. I'll show you both methods. I've got slightly different notation:

##M## is the mass of the large body, ##R## is the radius of the large body, ##r_0## is the starting position of the falling mass, ##r_1## is the final position of the falling mass, where ##r_1 \ge R##, and ##r## is the variable position of the falling mass. And, ##r'(0) = 0## meaning the falling mass starts from rest.

First, you have the differential equation for ##r##:

##r'' = -\frac{GM}{r^2}##

The first trick is to multiply both sides by the integrating factor ##2r'## to give:

##2r'r'' = -2r'\frac{GM}{r^2}##

##\frac{d}{dt}(r')^2 = \frac{d}{dt}(\frac{2GM}{r})##

##(r')^2 = \frac{2GM}{r} + C = \frac{2GM}{r} - \frac{2GM}{r_0} = 2GM(\frac{r_0 - r}{rr_0})## (using the initial position to find ##C##)

This gives us the first equation:

##(r')^2 = 2GM(\frac{r_0 - r}{rr_0})## Equation (1)

The alternative, as you suggested, is to use conservation of energy:

##-\frac{GMm}{r_0} = -\frac{GMm}{r} + \frac{1}{2}m(r')^2##

Which gives you equation (1) more easily.

The main trick is a non-obvious substitution:

Let ##r = r_0 cos^2\theta## hence ##r' = -2r_0(cos\theta sin\theta)\theta'##

Substituting this into (1) gives:

##4r_0^2(sin^2 \theta cos^2 \theta)(\theta')^2 = 2GMr_0(\frac{1 - cos^2 \theta}{r_0^2 cos^2 \theta}) = \frac{2GMsin^2 \theta}{r_0 cos^2 \theta}##

##cos^4 \theta (\theta')^2 = \frac{GM}{2r_0^3}##

##cos^2 \theta (\theta') = \sqrt{\frac{GM}{2r_0^3}}## Equation (2)

Now we integrate this with respect to ##t##, noting that at ##t = 0, r = r_0, \theta = 0## and at ##t = t_1, r = r_1, \theta = \theta_1##

##\int_0^{\theta_1} cos^2 \theta d \theta = \sqrt{\frac{GM}{2r_0^3}}t_1 + C##

##\frac{1}{4}[2\theta_1 + sin2\theta_1] = \sqrt{\frac{GM}{2r_0^3}}t_1## (as ##C = 0##)

This gives us essentially an intermediate solution for ##t_1##:

##t_1 = \sqrt{\frac{r_0^3}{8GM}}[2\theta_1 + sin2\theta_1]## Equation (3)

Where ##r_1 = r_0 cos^2 \theta_1## hence ##\theta_1 = cos^{-1} \sqrt{\frac{r_1}{r_0}}##

Now, of course, you can use trig identities to give ##sin 2\theta_1## in terms of ##r_0, r_1##:

##sin2\theta_1 = 2cos\theta_1 sin\theta_1 = 2 cos\theta_1 \sqrt{1- cos^2\theta_1} = 2 \sqrt{\frac{r_1}{r_0}} \sqrt{1- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}##

This gives you the formula that Janus posted:

##t_1 = \sqrt{\frac{r_0^3}{2GM}}[cos^{-1} \sqrt{\frac{r_1}{r_0}} + \sqrt{\frac{r_1}{r_0}(1- \frac{r_1}{r_0})}]## Equation (4)

Although, this is actually a more general formula for time to fall from any distance ##r_0## to any other distance ##r_1##.

There is a special case worth mentioning. If the object falls from a long way away and you model the large mass as a point mass, then ##r_1 = 0## and you get a good estimate for the time it takes the two objects to collide. The exact equation would, of course, have ##r_1 = R##:

##t_1 = \sqrt{\frac{r_0^3}{2GM}}[\frac{\pi}{2} + 0] = \pi \sqrt{\frac{r_0^3}{8GM}}## Equation (5)
 
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Is it valid to divide the distance r by t above to get the speed of entry?
 
houlahound said:
Is it valid to divide the distance r by t above to get the speed of entry?

No. You can get the speed at any point simply from conservation of energy.
 
PeroK said:
Yes, you can use conservation of energy, but that's not all you need. I'll show you both methods. I've got slightly different notation:

##M## is the mass of the large body, ##R## is the radius of the large body, ##r_0## is the starting position of the falling mass, ##r_1## is the final position of the falling mass, where ##r_1 \ge R##, and ##r## is the variable position of the falling mass. And, ##r'(0) = 0## meaning the falling mass starts from rest.

First, you have the differential equation for ##r##:

##r'' = -\frac{GM}{r^2}##

The first trick is to multiply both sides by the integrating factor ##2r'## to give:

##2r'r'' = -2r'\frac{GM}{r^2}##

##\frac{d}{dt}(r')^2 = \frac{d}{dt}(\frac{2GM}{r})##

##(r')^2 = \frac{2GM}{r} + C = \frac{2GM}{r} - \frac{2GM}{r_0} = 2GM(\frac{r_0 - r}{rr_0})## (using the initial position to find ##C##)

This gives us the first equation:

##(r')^2 = 2GM(\frac{r_0 - r}{rr_0})## Equation (1)

The alternative, as you suggested, is to use conservation of energy:

##-\frac{GMm}{r_0} = -\frac{GMm}{r} + \frac{1}{2}m(r')^2##

Which gives you equation (1) more easily.

The main trick is a non-obvious substitution:

Let ##r = r_0 cos^2\theta## hence ##r' = -2r_0(cos\theta sin\theta)\theta'##

Substituting this into (1) gives:

##4r_0^2(sin^2 \theta cos^2 \theta)(\theta')^2 = 2GMr_0(\frac{1 - cos^2 \theta}{r_0^2 cos^2 \theta}) = \frac{2GMsin^2 \theta}{r_0 cos^2 \theta}##

##cos^4 \theta (\theta')^2 = \frac{GM}{2r_0^3}##

##cos^2 \theta (\theta') = \sqrt{\frac{GM}{2r_0^3}}## Equation (2)

Now we integrate this with respect to ##t##, noting that at ##t = 0, r = r_0, \theta = 0## and at ##t = t_1, r = r_1, \theta = \theta_1##

##\int_0^{\theta_1} cos^2 \theta d \theta = \sqrt{\frac{GM}{2r_0^3}}t_1 + C##

##\frac{1}{4}[2\theta_1 + sin2\theta_1] = \sqrt{\frac{GM}{2r_0^3}}t_1## (as ##C = 0##)

This gives us essentially an intermediate solution for ##t_1##:

##t_1 = \sqrt{\frac{r_0^3}{8GM}}[2\theta_1 + sin2\theta_1]## Equation (3)

Where ##r_1 = r_0 cos^2 \theta_1## hence ##\theta_1 = cos^{-1} \sqrt{\frac{r_1}{r_0}}##

Now, of course, you can use trig identities to give ##sin 2\theta_1## in terms of ##r_0, r_1##:

##sin2\theta_1 = 2cos\theta_1 sin\theta_1 = 2 cos\theta_1 \sqrt{1- cos^2\theta_1} = 2 \sqrt{\frac{r_1}{r_0}} \sqrt{1- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}##

This gives you the formula that Janus posted:

##t_1 = \sqrt{\frac{r_0^3}{2GM}}[cos^{-1} \sqrt{\frac{r_1}{r_0}} + \sqrt{\frac{r_1}{r_0}(1- \frac{r_1}{r_0})}]## Equation (4)

Although, this is actually a more general formula for time to fall from any distance ##r_0## to any other distance ##r_1##.

There is a special case worth mentioning. If the object falls from a long way away and you model the large mass as a point mass, then ##r_1 = 0## and you get a good estimate for the time it takes the two objects to collide. The exact equation would, of course, have ##r_1 = R##:

##t_1 = \sqrt{\frac{r_0^3}{2GM}}[\frac{\pi}{2} + 0] = \pi \sqrt{\frac{r_0^3}{8GM}}## Equation (5)

Wow. Thank you I actually understand that. That is really awesome.
 

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