Find Extension of Springs: $\vec{r}$, $T$, and $x_E$

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a physics problem involving the extension of a spring when a mass is attached and allowed to hang under the influence of gravity. Participants explore the equilibrium position, the dynamics of the mass when displaced, and the mathematical relationships governing the system.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states the position vector of the particle as $\vec{r}=(l+x)\vec{k}$ and proposes that $T=\frac{\lambda x_E}{l}$ leading to $x_E=\frac{Tlm}{\lambda}$, expressing uncertainty about this approach.
  • Another participant clarifies that the modulus of elasticity $\lambda$ relates to the area of the cross-section of the material, suggesting a relationship between force, area, and extension using the formula $F=\frac{\lambda A}{l} x_E$.
  • There is confusion regarding the inclusion of the area $A$ in the calculations, with one participant noting that their class has only used the formula $\lambda x/l$ without mentioning area.
  • One participant acknowledges a potential mistake in substituting $T=mg$ and suggests that using $F=\lambda x/l$ would yield $x_E=F\frac{l}{\lambda}$.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of the modulus of elasticity, particularly regarding the necessity of including the area of the cross-section in calculations. There is no consensus on the correct approach, as some participants reference different formulations learned in class.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about the modulus of elasticity and its application in different contexts. The dependence on definitions of elasticity and the role of cross-sectional area are not fully resolved.

Carla1985
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Second question I am stuck on:

A spring of natural length l with modulus of elasticity λ has one end fixed to the ceiling. A particle of mass m is attached to the other end of the spring and is left to hang in its equilibrium position under the influence of gravity.

(i) Find the extension $x_E$ of the spring in the equilibrium position.

(ii) The particle is now lowered a distance $a$ below its equilibrium position and released from rest. Working from N2, show that if $z$ denotes the vertical displacement of the particle below its equilibrium position and we neglect theeffects of air resistance, then

$\ddot{z}+ω^2z = 0$,

where $ω^2 = λ/(lm)$. Deduce that $z(t) = a cos(ωt)$.

(iii) Suppose now that the particle is initially at the equilibrium position and is given a positive downward initial velocity $\dot{z}(0) = b$. Show that in this case,

$z(t) = \frac{b}{ω} sin ωt$,

and hence find the first time when the particle comes to rest."

I'm really stuck on this one. I know the position vector of the particle is $\vec{r}=(l+x)\vec{k}$

and I think $T=\frac{\lambda x_E}{l}$ so $x_E=\frac{Tlm}{\lambda}$ but not sure if that's way off.

Thanks
 
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Carla1985 said:
Second question I am stuck on:

A spring of natural length l with modulus of elasticity λ has one end fixed to the ceiling. A particle of mass m is attached to the other end of the spring and is left to hang in its equilibrium position under the influence of gravity.

(i) Find the extension $x_E$ of the spring in the equilibrium position.

(ii) The particle is now lowered a distance $a$ below its equilibrium position and released from rest. Working from N2, show that if $z$ denotes the vertical displacement of the particle below its equilibrium position and we neglect theeffects of air resistance, then

$\ddot{z}+ω^2z = 0$,

where $ω^2 = λ/(lm)$. Deduce that $z(t) = a cos(ωt)$.

(iii) Suppose now that the particle is initially at the equilibrium position and is given a positive downward initial velocity $\dot{z}(0) = b$. Show that in this case,

$z(t) = \frac{b}{ω} sin ωt$,

and hence find the first time when the particle comes to rest."

I'm really stuck on this one. I know the position vector of the particle is $\vec{r}=(l+x)\vec{k}$

and I think $T=\frac{\lambda x_E}{l}$ so $x_E=\frac{Tlm}{\lambda}$ but not sure if that's way off.

Thanks

Hi again Carla! ;)

The modulus of elasticity λ is a property of a material.
To use it, you need the area of a cross section of the material.
So you need to use that
$$\qquad \displaystyle \lambda = \frac{\text{stress}}{\text{strain}} = \frac{F/A}{x_E/l}$$
where F is the force of gravity and A is the area of a cross section.Note that this can be rewritten as
$$\qquad F=\frac{\lambda A}{l} x_E = k x_E$$
which is the usual form of Hooke's law, meaning that the extension of a spring is linear with the applied force.Btw, in the equilibrium position, you would have that $T$ is equal to $mg$.
 
So the extension of the spring is $x_E=F\frac{l}{\lambda A}$? I'm a little confused by the A if I'm honest. In class we've just used λx/l and have never mentioned using the area of anything :/
 
Carla1985 said:
So the extension of the spring is $x_E=F\frac{l}{\lambda A}$? I'm a little confused by the A if I'm honest. In class we've just used λx/l and have never mentioned using the area of anything :/

Yes.

It appears you are using a different modulus of elasticity in class.
My reference is the version on wiki: Elastic modulus or Young's modulus.

But if you're using F=λx/l in class, you'd get $x_E=F\frac{l}{\lambda}$.

Then it seems as if you've only made a mistake substituting $T=mg$.
 
Yes, and the rest of the question makes a lot more sense now :) Thank you ever so much for your help. It is very much appreciated x
 

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