Finite Intersection Property Question

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the finite intersection property (f.i.p.) and its implications in various mathematical contexts, particularly in relation to sequences of sets and the axiom of choice. Participants explore formal definitions, specific examples, and the relationship between f.i.p. and completeness in ordered fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks a formal definition of the f.i.p. that applies universally across different sets and fields.
  • There is a question about whether having the f.i.p. implies that for every natural number n, there exists an element in the intersection of the first n sets.
  • Concerns are raised about the assumption that the intersection of an infinite sequence of sets is non-empty based on the f.i.p.
  • A participant queries whether the axiom of choice is necessary when forming a new sequence by selecting elements from a sequence of nonempty sets without additional properties.
  • Another participant provides a definition of f.i.p. in the context of closed subsets and discusses its relationship to the axiom of choice through Tychonoff's theorem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion reflects multiple competing views regarding the implications of the finite intersection property and the necessity of the axiom of choice, with no consensus reached on these points.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the assumptions underlying the f.i.p. and its implications, particularly in relation to the completeness of ordered fields and the necessity of the axiom of choice in certain constructions.

td88
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
I'm having a little trouble distinguishing the line between what the f.i.p implies and what it does not.

**EDIT2** Hopefully this will make things more clear

What I'm really interested in is a formal definition of the f.i.p regardless of the set in question or the field.

Given the sequence \{a_n\}_{n \in \mathbb{N}} in some field \mathbb{K}, is having the f.i.p equivalent to saying (\forall n \in \mathbb{N})(\exists x \in \mathbb{K})(x \in \cap_{i=1}^n a_n)

The question about the sequence was that I was afraid (even though it seems pretty clear to me that this should follow from the previous statement) that it's construction assumed that the intersection of the entire set was non-empty as the sequence itself is infinite and says for all n \in \mathbb{N} pick an element from the nth intersection.

My question about the axiom of choice, was that, if I'm just given a sequence of nonempty sets (assuming no other properties like order complete) and I just say form a new sequence by picking some random element from each set in the old sequence, does this require the Axiom of Choice?

Thanks---------------------------------------
Original

Specifically, if we are working in R and \{[a_i, b_i]\}_{i \in \mathbb{N}} satisfies the finite intersection property, then does that imply that (\forall n \in \mathbb{N})(\exists x \in \mathbb{R})(x \in \cap_{i=1}^n [a_i, b_i]), and, if it does, then can we use the axiom of choice (I believe this is needed...) to define a sequence \{c_n\}_{n \in \mathbb{N}} where c_n \in \cap_{i=1}^n [a_i, b_i]?

Thanks

**EDIT** I stated R above to make things simple, but it may help to know that in reality I'm trying to prove that sequential (Cauchy) completeness in a totally ordered Archimedean field implies that every sequence of bounded closed interval with the finite intersection property has a nonempty intersection.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
[noparse] Regarding the LaTeX... Start with and end with. Alternatively, use itex instead of tex. itex is supposed to look better if the math expression appears in the middle of a line of text, but it doesn't always. itex also cuts off the top of some large symbols. You can (and should) preview before you post, but there's a bug that makes old latex images show up in all previews except the first. When that happens, just refresh and resend.[/noparse]
 
Thanks for the LaTeX tip, I changed it
 
td88 said:
What I'm really interested in is a formal definition of the f.i.p regardless of the set in question or the field.

F.I.P. is a property of a space that whenever a family of closed subsets is such that any finite subcollection has a non-empty intersection, so does the entire family.

My question about the axiom of choice, was that, if I'm just given a sequence of nonempty sets (assuming no other properties like order complete) and I just say form a new sequence by picking some random element from each set in the old sequence, does this require the Axiom of Choice?

F.I.P. is related to the Axiom of Choice by Tychonoff's theorem which states that the Cartesian product of compact topological spaces is compact.

http://www.indopedia.org/index.php?title=Tychonoff_theorem
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K