Floating a cruise ship in a bucket of water

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the theoretical possibility of floating a cruise ship in a small volume of water, such as that contained in a bucket. Participants agree that while it is theoretically feasible, practical challenges arise, including the need for precise measurements and structural integrity of both the ship and the container. Various methods are proposed for demonstrating this concept, such as using a polyethylene film to create a controlled water layer around the ship. The conversation also touches on the importance of buoyancy principles and how to accurately measure displacement and pressure in such a confined setup. Ultimately, the group seeks to establish a practical testing method to validate the theory.
DaveC426913
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This myth has been around a long time. (I wish I'd sent it in to Mythbusters.) Do we all agree it is theoretically possible? Once we do, can we figure out a practical way of testing it?
OK. I'm sure we're all in agreement that it is theoretically possible to float a cruise ship "in" a bucket of water, right? If not, maybe we need to sort that out first.

A couple of practical provisos to start:
  1. Allow some leeway on what constitutes a Cruise Ship for our purposes. I submit that it's going to have to be an ideal shape below the waterline - no props or any other shoes - just a straight-sided/bottomed brick, to a high degree of precision.
  2. Allow some acceptable leeway on what minimum mass constitutes a valid test. A typical cruise ship may displace 100,000 tonnes. Is 1,000 tonnes enough? How about 1 tonne?
  3. We are not floating it literally "in a bucket of water", we are floating it in an amount of water that a bucket can hold. (Say, 5 gallons?)
  4. We come to an agreement on what constitutes "floating".
Eventually I'd like to figure out how this can be tested convincingly, and I foresee some practical challenges, such as:
  • how you measure a layer of water just micrometers thick, and
  • how you can convince someone that that is actually floating, and not just "a wet layer".
 
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DaveC426913 said:
how you measure a layer of water just micrometers thick
Electrical capacitance with water as the dielectric.

Imagine a cruise ship at sea. The hull surface is wet. All other water is the sea. The ship is floating in the wet layer, independent of the sea. The pressure applied to the hull through the wet layer is the hydrostatic pressure of the sea.
 
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To me, the greatest challenge would be to support the bottom of the bucket in such a way that the whole weight of the ship is transferred down to the ground, as well as to reinforce the sides of that bucket to resist the water pressure gradient without suffering deformations that make our ship "sink" due to insufficient height of fluid.
 
First: I want to float Noah's Ark. Too many drunken souls on a cruise ship. So that's settled.
Here's my method:
  1. You make a polyethylene film cover for the ark hull, but slightly larger
  2. At the ark dock, measure the flotation height of the ark
  3. Using divers surround the hull with the polyfilm hull and pump various amounts of water between the poly and the hull.
  4. Check for variation in the flotation of the ark, now contained in a polyfilm container of variable size.
Hey, you're the one who asked. Be sure to feed the animals.

.
 
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The @hutchphd method is in use now.
One way used to remove fouling from a boat hull, without slipping the vessel, is to wrap the hull in a big plastic bag, pump out the water from between the hull and the bag, then pour a bucket of bleach into the gap to kill the fouling organisms. That proves a boat can float in a bucket of bleach. Then replace the bleach with water, by removing the bag. QED.
 
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Lnewqban said:
...reinforce the sides of that bucket to resist the water pressure gradient without suffering deformations that make our ship "sink" due to insufficient height of fluid.
Deformation is a problem for the other side too. The deformation of the hull also asks for more water. So the size of the experiment is severely limited by the structural strength of the equipment/boat.

Regarding the proof of floating:
- adding more water should raise the ship deck level accordingly
- adding weight to the ship should displace water accordingly
...both proof is limited by the amount of water permitted. Needs quite the accuracy to get good results: above a size it's not convincing at all :cry:
 
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I doubt you can do this experiment with a flat sided prism. I think you must use a spherical shell, ground against a diam/3 deep spherical socket. Equilibrate the temperatures, then float the shell in the socket.
 
Baluncore said:
diam/3
Just curious - why 3 particularly?
 
  • #10
Ibix said:
Just curious - why 3 particularly?
Because it is about right, the sides are sufficiently steep but not vertical.
Maybe π would be a better choice for a mathematician.
But then, knowing the coefficient of friction an engineer could calculate the critical cone angle to avoid at which the sphere might lock in place and so not float.
 
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  • #11
Baluncore said:
Electrical capacitance with water as the dielectric.
I wondered about this. Yeah, I think it would work.
 
  • #12
I think I've got a good idea of how to show the floating.

Scrap the ship being a perfect brick shape, and sitting in a negative brick-shaped mold.

The ship can be any shape, but it has a cylindrical keel-like protruberance out the bottom.
It is only the keel that is immersed in water; the bulk of the ship is measurably above water level. (like a stationary hydrofoil with only one boom).

The volume of the keel alone displaces more water than the mass of the whole ship. The keel is, say, .5m in diameter and (r squared, carry the one) 5m tall will displace 1 ton of water.

It sits in a "bucket" that is 5m tall and .5m in diameter.

The singular advantage of this setup is the vertical motion of the ship will manifest as a vastly exaggerated rise of water in the "bucket".

This means that the 1 ton object could be shown to be floating because you could push down on it, and - while it would sink an almost unnoticeable amount - a peephole in the side of the bucket would allow you to see the water level rise dramatically.

1625450380201.png


Anyone who has cleaned up after a party, and stacked discarded cups together without fully emptying them of liquids knows how dramatically the water level can rise and gush out.
 
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  • #13
DaveC426913 said:
The volume of the keel alone displaces more water than the mass of the whole ship. The keel is, say, .5m in diameter and (r squared, carry the one) 5m tall will displace 1 ton of water.

It sits in a "bucket" that is 5m tall and .5m in diameter.
The keel would need to be a conical right frustum to minimise the water volume requirement.

Back to capacitance and the cup and ball ...
The choice of material becomes important if both the cup and ball must be conductive. Surface oxidation of the metal will determine the radial clearance. "Grounding" of the hull needs to be immediately detected by conduction when attempting a capacitance measurement. That requires a gold plated sphere, but gold is not lubricated by water, so there will be surface welding issues.

The question is also one of how to generate conforming surfaces. A cone would be difficult, not just because of the point, but because the grinding cannot be done in more than one dimension. That keeps me returning to the sphere. Producing the spherical shell by grinding in the cup is an advantage and a disadvantage with glass. The problem is that glass tends to grind metals and other glass when water is present.

Going back to optical measurements with a glass cup and ball, it seems the friction coefficient of glass on glass in a water saturated atmosphere is very close to 1, which I guess is why grinding glass works so well. The coefficient is found in fig 2 at the end of of DH Buckley, 1973, "Friction behavior of glass and metals in contact with glass in various environments”.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19740006026/downloads/19740006026.pdf
 
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  • #14
Baluncore said:
Back to capacitance and the cup and ball ...
You are just so far ahead of my understanding I'm just going to give you an : informative :
 
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  • #15
DaveC426913 said:
You are just so far ahead of my understanding I'm just going to give you an : informative :
Thanks, but I am just the translator.
Once I understand a problem my brain sub-conciously searches the maze of possible solutions without the handicap of language.
 
  • #16
I believe the large massive circular stabilized optical tables (think Michelson-Morley) were floated on a rather small volume of mercury in a somewhat conformal circular tub. In addition to reducing the amount of Hg required, making them conformal also makes their absolute level more stable against weight variations for the reasons given. Hadn't thought about that previously.
 
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  • #17
"An object with a mass of 25.2 g will displace 25.2 cm3 of water. If the object has a volume greater than 25.2 cm3, it will stop sinking before it is completely submerged. In other words, it will float. If its volume is less than 25.2 cm3, it will not stop before its entire volume sinks below the surface."

I can't reconcile this to cruise ships and buckets. One metric ton of ship displaces one cubic meter of water. 100,000 metric ton ship displaces 100,000 cubic meters of water. If the ship has a larger volume it floats.

If the 100,000 ton ship were beaten into a 1 micron layer it would still displace 100,000 tons of water. The thickness of the ship would always be far thicker than the available water layer given 5 gallons spread out. There would not be enough water on an area basis to support the ship.

https://scienceprimer.com/buoyancy
 
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  • #18
When a ship floats, the shape of the hole made in the water, is the same shape as the hull. The volume of water that the hull displaces does not need to be provided, because the hull fills that space.

If you make a mold to fit the boat hull exactly, and you then pour 1 bucket of water into the gap between the boat and the mold, the wet boat would float in the mold, on a 10 micron film of water.
 
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  • #19
bob012345 said:
I can't reconcile this to cruise ships and buckets.
Think of building a ship and a socket for the ship that has the same exact shape up to the water line, but scaled up by some tiny amount. Fill the socket with water, then lower the ship in. The ship displaces its weight of water, leaving only the tiny extra amount as a thin layer between the hull and the socket.

But the displaced water has spilled over the edge of the socket, all over the lab floor, and down the drain. We didn't actually need it to start with - it's irrelevant. We could have started with the socket empty except for the amount of water that we expect to be left between the hull and the socket - one bucket full. This is the approach @Baluncore describes.
 
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  • #20
What is the pressure in that thin film of water 'floating' in the mold as compared to the pressure in an equivalent film of water around the ship where the ship is in the ocean?
 
  • #21
DaveC426913 said:
Summary:: This myth has been around a long time. (I wish I'd sent it into Mythbusters.) Do we all agree it is theoretically possible? Once we do, can we figure out a practical way of testing it?

OK. I'm sure we're all in agreement that it is theoretically possible
I remember, when I was at primary school in Plymouth (a famous naval port city in UK - Sir Francis Drake was a Devon man - "he sailed the seven seas" etc.) and we were taken on a trip to the breakwater which protects shipping in the bay. A great day trip for ten year old school kids. We were taken up the lighthouse that's one end of the breakwater and shown the rotating lamp mechanism. We were told that it floated in an annular (not the word they used for us) trough of mercury. That impressed us all and we couldn't actually imagine what that meant and Mercury was exotic and expensive, even in out small brains. I'm not sure why regular bearings wouldn't have done but the mechanism was clockwork and the mirror and shutter arrangement must have been a few tens of kg and they clearly needed a low power to drive it. This is a similar scenario to the cruiser and the bucket and we clearly understood that there was not a lot of actual mercury in the trough so the lighthouse contained floating proof of the application of Archimedes' Principle that does not involve the actual existence of the 'displaced fluid'.
But the practicalities were in favour of the mercury flotation; moderate load and good engineering tolerances. Distortion would not have been a huge issue as the 'keepers' had a blind to avoid solar heating effects.
The lighthouse was actually staffed during the fifties!
 
  • #22
Sounds to me like the concept being proposed here is like using a water layer as a lubricant. In the tight fitting mold discussed, is it sealed so the water cannot leak out like an air cushion designed to move around a heavy object? Do we say machine parts float on a layer of oil?
 
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  • #23
No the metal does not float on oil. A pressurized oil bearing relies on the the surface adhesion and viscosity of the oil to resist loading: too thin (or too hot) oil will not resist asymmetric load leading to catastrophic failure.

It is true that as the water film becomes thin the dynamics of motion of the system will change because water is viscous and there are surface interactions but the statics of Archimedes principle will hold.
 
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  • #24
bob012345 said:
What is the pressure in that thin film of water 'floating' in the mold as compared to the pressure in an equivalent film of water around the ship where the ship is in the ocean?
It is absolutely identical.
 
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  • #25
Ibix said:
Think of building a ship and a socket for the ship that has the same exact shape up to the water line, but scaled up by some tiny amount. Fill the socket with water, then lower the ship in. The ship displaces its weight of water, leaving only the tiny extra amount as a thin layer between the hull and the socket.

But the displaced water has spilled over the edge of the socket, all over the lab floor, and down the drain. We didn't actually need it to start with - it's irrelevant. We could have started with the socket empty except for the amount of water that we expect to be left between the hull and the socket - one bucket full. This is the approach @Baluncore describes.
Ok, I agree with this argument now. It floats. Here is an argument based on Pascal and the Hydrostatic Paradox.

https://gizmodo.com/the-paradox-that-lets-you-float-a-cruise-ship-in-a-buck-1460438986
 
  • #26
bob012345 said:
What is the pressure in that thin film of water 'floating' in the mold as compared to the pressure in an equivalent film of water around the ship where the ship is in the ocean?
This is why the thought experiment of building up the wall of the bucket around the ship is so informative.
Just keep placing bricks closer and closer to the hull, and eventually, there will be no room for more than a bucketful of water. At no point does the water immediately around the ship change in any way, and the ship never "knows" anything about the existence of bricks, just water.
 
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  • #27
bob012345 said:
Ok, I agree with this argument now. It floats. Here is an argument based on Pascal and the Hydrostatic Paradox.

https://gizmodo.com/the-paradox-that-lets-you-float-a-cruise-ship-in-a-buck-1460438986
This has come up before in a couple of Physics Forums discussions, and it really isn't a paradox. Archimedes principle could use a slight changing of the wording, where it is the weight of the "effective" volume of water displaced, (i.e. volume below the waterline), that is equal to the buoyant force. With that qualifier, Archimedes principle works as it should.
 
  • #28
Charles Link said:
This has come up before in a couple of Physics Forums discussions, and it really isn't a paradox. Archimedes principle could use a slight changing of the wording, where it is the weight of the "effective" volume of water displaced, (i.e. volume below the waterline), that is equal to the buoyant force. With that qualifier, Archimedes principle works as it should.
I was using the common name. it doesn't mean I believe its a paradox. That's just what its called.
 
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  • #29
Maybe you don’t know that, in compliance with Classification Societies rules ( consider f. i. the American Bureau of Shipping) , all ships, not only cruise ships, are to be put in dry dock periodically, for inspection , cleaning, painting and repairing purposes.
what is a dry dock? Well, in short, it is a kind of parallelepiped space, in free communicaation with the sea, in a shipyard, where the ship is carefully carried inside by means of tugs and ropes…and other technical facilities . When the ship is completely inside, still freefloating, a watertight door is put in place at the entrance of the dock, and some powerful pumps start pumping out the water left inside the dock, so the ship slowly goes down, until the bottom rests on a series of very robust wooden blocks, which all toghether react to the ship ‘s weight! All the water is taken out by means of smaller pumps, so that a lot of people can go down in the dock and do their jobs. First of all, cleaning and inspection.
So the ship is free floating until she touches the blocks : i have described the dry-dockingdocking operation in a few words, but you can imagine the complexity and required operational awareness.
 
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  • #30
italicus said:
all ships, not only cruise ships, are to be put in dry dock periodically,
If you were to measure the time taken to empty the dock to ground the ship, the difference between times for a large and a small ship would correspond to the water they displace from the dock. That could be about the only way to find the weight of a big ship.
 
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  • #31
Furthermore, i will add that a dry dock is usually the best place to carry out the so called “inclining test” , to determine the lightship weight and the coordinates of the center of gravity ( empty ship). But of course now the door of the dock isn’t closed, the ship must be free floating!
I can’t add technical details, have a look at this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclining_test
 
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  • #32
@sophiecentaur

well, your idea could be a way to determine the weight of a ship. But actually there is a simpler method: when you a have a ship in harbor, you just read drafts fore, middle and aft, and make a mean ; then you use diagrams or computerized data, which give the displacement by means of Archimede ‘s law.
I have worked for more than 40 years as a marine surveyor, that was my job!
Thank you for the attention!
 
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  • #33
italicus said:
@sophiecentaur

well, your idea could be a way to determine the weight of a ship. But actually there is a simpler method: when you a have a ship in harbor, you just read drafts fore, middle and aft, and make a mean ; then you use diagrams or computerized data, which give the displacement by means of Archimede ‘s law.
I have worked for more than 40 years as a marine surveyor, that was my job!
Thank you for the attention!
That makes a lot of sense in practice but the accuracy depends on knowing absolutely everything about the structure and contents of the ship. No one would be in a position to challenge your answers but would it matter?
As a matter of interest, does the inclining test result agree well with the calculations that surveyors do? There is a philosophy that tells us to be pessimistic in design ratings and that works well except when a spot of corruption affects construction methods and materials.
It's interesting that most disasters where structures are involved can always be put down to commercial (and even criminal) interests, rather than the good old Engineers and Surveyors. Good regulation is the key.
 
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  • #34
italicus said:
@sophiecentaur

well, your idea could be a way to determine the weight of a ship. But actually there is a simpler method: when you a have a ship in harbor, you just read drafts fore, middle and aft, and make a mean ; then you use diagrams or computerized data, which give the displacement by means of Archimede ‘s law.
I have worked for more than 40 years as a marine surveyor, that was my job!
Thank you for the attention!
For us Landlubbers, what does that mean reading drafts? Thanks.
 
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  • #35
bob012345 said:
For us Landlubbers, what does that mean reading drafts? Thanks.
Draft means the shallowest water that the boat can float in. That may be the same all along the bottom or in one place - for a sailing boat with a fin keel. Hence you may need to know the draft at several points along the bottom of a ship.
Marine terms are about the worst possible for the outsider - in quantity and in oddness.
 
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  • #36
I would not think it necessary. Prove displacement of water.

But if you really wanted. Build a triangular pool with a known volume. Fill it to the brim. Put a triangular ship (known volume and known weight ... just 8.3 lbs less than the weight of the water in the pool) in and measure the height of the ship and the water displaced. Show the weight of the ship and water displaced is the same. Take out 1 gallon. Measure the height of the ship and the water displaced. Show that the weight of the ship and the water displaced differs by the weight of the 1 gallon of water removed prior to displacement. Take out another gallon and repeat.

When you take out the last gallon, the ship is marginally lower. And your equation for the weight of the ship vs the water displaced (or removed prior to displacement) is suddenly unbalanced.

Personally, the unbalanced equation at the end of the sequence is enough for me. But the reality is that the ship is now lower, and a careful measurement will show that.

You could also go the other direction. Start with a gallon of water in transparent container. Use a large styrofoam bucket as your ship. Keep adding weights and measuring the height of the water around the styrofoam. Again you prove displacement. Your "ship" is always floating on a gallon, with the height based on the weight of the water displaced

The fundamental principle is difficult to show at the extreme case, and easy to show for non-extreme cases. I don't quite understand the reason why the extreme case needs proof, when the principle is established and no one needs a ship in a tank that is form-fitting.
 
  • #37
votingmachine said:
When you take out the last gallon, the ship is marginally lower. And your equation for the weight of the ship vs the water displaced (or removed prior to displacement) is suddenly unbalanced.
Marginally being the operative word here.

At the scale of a cruise ship and a bucket of water, that 'marginally' may be measured in microns.

And how do you demonstrate to a skeptic that that counts as floating?
 
  • #38
Baluncore said:
One way used to remove fouling from a boat hull, without slipping the vessel, is to wrap the hull in a big plastic bag, pump out the water from between the hull and the bag, then pour a bucket of bleach into the gap to kill the fouling organisms.
I think that's a clever way to de-foul. A simpler way, if you can arrange it, is to simply sail into fresh water. The salt water creatures die quickly. When you return to salt water, the fresh water creatures attached will die quickly.
 
  • #39
DaveC426913 said:
I wondered about this. Yeah, I think it would work.
It will if you do it right. Capacitance can be measured to exquisite sensitivity by counting individual electrons with a SQUID (vide Rod Harris-Lowe).
 
  • #40
sophiecentaur said:
That makes a lot of sense in practice but the accuracy depends on knowing absolutely everything about the structure and contents of the ship. No one would be in a position to challenge your answers but would it matter?
As a matter of interest, does the inclining test result agree well with the calculations that surveyors do? There is a philosophy that tells us to be pessimistic in design ratings and that works well except when a spot of corruption affects construction methods and materials.
It's interesting that most disasters where structures are involved can always be put down to commercial (and even criminal) interests, rather than the good old Engineers and Surveyors. Good regulation is the key.
You can easily understand that it is not possible to know exactly what is the weight and the G coordinates ( referred to an Oxyz ideal reference frame, have a look at my sketch), of every steel plate, every section frame, every engine, motor, pump, compressor, pipe, electrical device, crane, rope, and so on, including furniture, that are assembled together to make a ship, whichever kind of ship : passenger, general cargo, bulk carrier, tanker, even navy ships!
So, concerning commercial ships ( but navy ship too are subject to similar rules), it is compulsory that , at the end of construction ( or almost the end...I cannot enter into details here!) , a ship undergoes an inclining test. This test is simple to describe in line of principle, but not so easy to carry out, believe me! I have directed a lot of tests like this, and it takes first of all an accurate survey of the ship in construction , in order to unload as many unnecessary items as possible, f.i. welding machines that are still on board...and other! The masses that create moments are moved from port to starboard several times, and the relevant angles of inclination are measured, in several ways : a test like that can require a whole day !

The result of the inclining test, imposed by international safety rules ( e.g. , first of all, the rules issued by the IMO = International Maritime Organisation) are sufficiently reliable, to be the basis of all subsequent stability calculations that are to be carried out in every given loading condition : the empty ship weight, and the coordinates of its center of gravity, are the basis for calculations of the ship’s stability future condition of loading, and these conditions are to be in compliance with the international safety rules , first of all SOLAS ( safety of life at sea) rules, which are in a continuous evolution and improvement , since the first London convention , which followed the TITANIC sinking. Nowadays , we are no longer in the conditions of the TITANIC , there are mountains of rules issued by periodical conferences at the IMO. IF you wish , look for its site, to get a simple idea ! You will be astonished against the quantity of rules to be applied in this context ! The shipping industry is a very complicated world , I hope you trust me.

It's interesting that most disasters where structures are involved can always be put down to commercial (and even criminal) interests, rather than the good old Engineers and Surveyors. Good regulation is the key.

Well, dear Sophie, don’t be so extreme! It is out of doubt that disasters at sea occur , but not always for commercial or criminal interests. A ship cannot depart a harbour with more goods on board than allowed by its Load Line marks, that establish the maximum allowed draft (Plimsoll marks, never heard?) : no Port Authority will let she go. Good regulation are there, and of course must be respected. But disasters sometimes occur for unforeseen circumstances, f.e. technical failure, and of course human errors, which are always behind the corner! I have been nominated by italian courts as an expert in some ships disasters, and have learned a great lesson from my experiences : big disasters are often due to a lot of concurrent causes, some of which may be considered not significant , if taken alone ! In any case, the heavy work of surveyors isn’t to be underestimated .

One of the guy, Bob 012345, asked what “reading the drafts” means; Bob, have a look at the attached sketch :
draft marks.jpeg


You have to imagine that the still water surface ideally cuts the ship in two parts : only the portion under the surface displaces water, of course. The Archimede’s principle says that the weight of the whole ship ( or a floating body in general) equals the weight of the amount of water displaced, for it is in equilibrium under its weight and hydrostatic buoyancy.
On both sides of a ship, draft marks are welded, fore, middle and aft. The mean draft allows you to enter the ship’s hydrostatic curves, nowadays replaced by computer calculations, which give you the immersed volume, so S = dgV ( d= density of water) , and other geometrical characteristics of the ship. But the final weight and position of G, when the ship is loaded, cannot be read from geometrical characteristics, they depend strictly on the amount of goods loaded , and their position on board.

Excuse me for my bad English.
 
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  • #41
DaveC426913 said:
Marginally being the operative word here.

At the scale of a cruise ship and a bucket of water, that 'marginally' may be measured in microns.

And how do you demonstrate to a skeptic that that counts as floating?
I wouldn't call it floating either. Since capillary forces matter, it is likely that the force of gravity and buoyancy are exceeded by surface tension effects from the water.

I would actually expect deviation form the buoyancy masses earlier. The normally negligible surface tension force would probably create a measurable deviation as the volume of water becomes small, and the surface area large.

If that is true, then it is not correct to say that a ship with a large surface area can be floated in a very small water volume, with a carefully constructed tank.

I had not spend a lot of time thinking about the boundary conditions of buoyancy. If one wanted to take it to the ridiculous extreme, hypothesize a volume of water spread such that the depth is 1 angstrom. Obviously water molecules no longer fit. At the boundary conditions of a large thing and a very perfectly conforming tank ... it is not possible to prove buoyancy. Surface tension of water would matter.

Take a small barge. 200 ft x 50 ft. Call it 50 meters by 20 meters. So about 1000 square meters. Call it 4 liters of water, so 4 cubic decimeter of water. 4x10^-3 cubic meters. The barge on top of 1 gallon would squash it to a thickness of 4x10^-6 meters, or 1 micrometer.

That is a measurable distance.

But consider if instead you had placed a 1-gallon ball of tortilla dough under the barge. How thin can you squash the dough before it resists and supports the barge? Are you "floating" the barge?

1. The skeptic might be right.
2. It doesn't matter. I'm not invested in proving the boundary conditions of buoyancy in form fitting boundary conditions. I'm quite willing to allow the skeptic his doubt towards the limiting conditions of buoyancy. As long as the skeptic does not deny the basic principles.
 
  • #42
votingmachine said:
surface tension effects from the water.
The font of all knowledge says the surface Tension of water is 72 mN/m. Gonna need a pretty small Ark for that to matter
 
  • #43
votingmachine said:
I wouldn't call it floating either. Since capillary forces matter, it is likely that the force of gravity and buoyancy are exceeded by surface tension effects from the water.

I would actually expect deviation form the buoyancy masses earlier. The normally negligible surface tension force would probably create a measurable deviation as the volume of water becomes small, and the surface area large.
Surface tension is something to consider - although I'm not sure, in the end, if it matters. Just because surface tension applies does not necessarily mean it negates the meaning of floating.

I mean, I can float a pin in a small glass of water that has a noticeable meniscus (surface tension). Though the pin's centre of mass might not be the same height in a larger container, does that disqualify the pin's claim to be floating?

votingmachine said:
But consider if instead you had placed a 1-gallon ball of tortilla dough under the barge. How thin can you squash the dough before it resists and supports the barge? Are you "floating" the barge?
Tortilla dough is not a liquid.
 
  • #44
The point remains that there is a limit if we took that 1000 square meter flat barge, we had a 1 micrometer depth with the 4 liter volume. So 4 mls would be one 1-thousandth that depth, or 1 nanometer. 0.4 mls gets you to 1 angstrom, smaller than a water molecule. Put 0.4 mls under that barge and it will be higher than the height expected for "floating".

Likewise, a cruise ship that is 300 meters by 50 meters with a depth of 10 meters has 20,000 square meters of surface area in the water. The 4 liter volume spreads to one-twentieth of a micron, 50 nanometers.

Floating has a common meaning of freedom of movement. Not just buoyant suspension. When we constrain the volume to so small an amount that movement is no longer possible ... we may demonstrate buoyancy, but are we demonstrating floating?

Every "ship" will have a surface area below the water. We express buoyancy based on the volume based mass of water, and in theory, that could be demonstrated with the smallest amount of volume of water and a perfect tank. In practice, there are properties of water that matter and the boundary condition will always break down at some point. 1 gallon may well be close to that limit for some surface areas.
 
  • #45
votingmachine said:
Floating has a common meaning of freedom of movement. Not just buoyant suspension.
Others may disagree with your points because they disagree on the freedom of movement as a requirement.
 
  • #46
anorlunda said:
Others may disagree with your points because they disagree on the freedom of movement as a requirement.
True. But a puck floating on an air hockey table, is not buoyant. We do somewhat consider the word floating to have a meaning beyond buoyancy. That may not matter to this debate.

EDIT: I've seen cool fountains with a spherical rock "floating" on water pumped from below. Again, this use of the word is not necessarily important, but definitions can cinfuse the issue.
 
  • #47
I am somewhat unwilling to argue with that skeptic. If I have a ship that displaces 1 million gallons, I would only say that it displaces 1 million gallons. I would not make a claim that I could build a 1 million-plus-1 gallon tank and float it.

Sure in theory ... But it is not a thing anyone should TRY to prove. Prove displacement and buoyancy. Those matter. The actual experiment is really difficult. So let the skeptic be skeptical. If he wants to prove people wrong by building a 1-million-plus-1 gallon tank ... go for it.

I would add the surface area component I mentioned matters. 1 million gallons can have many surface areas.
 
  • #48
Is anyone else concerned that we have passed the silliness threshold here? Angels and pinheads come to mind...
 
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Likes jbriggs444 and anorlunda
  • #49
votingmachine said:
Sure in theory ... But it is not a thing anyone should TRY to prove. Prove displacement and buoyancy. Those matter.
I'm going to hazard you haven't watched Mythbusters...
 
  • #50
DaveC426913 said:
I'm going to hazard you haven't watched Mythbusters...
No ... but then again, I watch about 20 sports games per year on TV and nothing else. So the set of TV shows I haven't seen since Seinfeld is about everything.

I'm still of the opinion that the thing to say is that a particular ship displaces a certain volume. Anyone that wants to make statements for or against conformational tanks is free to do so. The fact is that a ship that displaces 1 million gallons, displaces 1 million gallons. If you want to buy a ship and try to prove some other thing about tanks and boats ... have at it. If you want to say the ship that displaces 1 million gallons DOESN'T displace 1 million gallons ... then we have disagreement.

I guess I hold with a position analogous to a Copenhagen-interpretation. I will say the fact I know (the ship displaces 1 million gallons) and if you want to make an unfounded statement about ships and impractical tanks ... I guess I don't care. Build your impractical tank and run the experiment.

This does seem like an angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin debate.
 

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