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Formic acid and glycerin as dielectric substances

  1. Sep 9, 2006 #1
    Hello everybody
    I have tried to obtain but I have not been successful the dielectric strength or breakdown voltage values of following materials.....

    these are: FORMIC ACID and GLYCERIN. (to room temperature)
    I need to know these values...
    thank you again.

    Norbert
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 9, 2006 #2

    NoTime

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    Why would you think that either of these exhibits any dieletric properties?
     
  4. Sep 9, 2006 #3

    Gokul43201

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    Because they are not vacuum?
     
  5. Sep 10, 2006 #4

    NoTime

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    What's up? :confused:
    Last I checked, vacuum was a reasonable dielectric.

    Wouldn't an acid be fairly conductive and generally not exhibit a breakdown voltge?
     
  6. Sep 10, 2006 #5

    Gokul43201

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    A theoretical vacuum is the only substance with a dielectric constant of 1, and hence is uninteresting.

    In an aqueous solution, I'd imagine that's true. I thought the OP was talking about the pure, anhydrous compounds. But then, I can't think of a good reason for that info either.

    Also, I'm not sure if dielectric breakdown is only defined for static (dc) voltages, because electrolytes have no equilibrium dc conductivity, so even in solution, this might be a relevant question...I just don't know.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2006
  7. Sep 12, 2006 #6

    NoTime

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    Ok. The 1 is uninteresting cause that's by definition.
    OTOH the fact that nothing has a dielectic constant is :smile:

    substance, hmmmm :devil:

    IIRC anhydrous formic acid is a gas at room temp and is highly reactive.
    I suppose that if you had some material that it would not react with, that was also conductive, you might be able to test its dielectric value.
    I'm thinking it might be quite a technical challenge.
     
  8. Sep 13, 2006 #7
    Ok this solution is an organic acid, belong to carboxylic acid group
    I suppose that its electrical properties are similar to components in this group.
    Sure the breakdown voltage of it depends on the frequency its value falls with it.
     
  9. Sep 13, 2006 #8

    NoTime

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    Are you ending up with something like an electrolytic capacitor?

    The electrolyte forms an oxide layer on the conductive surface.
    The oxide layer providing both the breakdown voltage and dielectic value.
     
  10. Sep 14, 2006 #9
    I have thought to do a complete catalog with the values of many compounds.
    of course, the idea is to use after these values to industrial development
    the physical condition should be following:
    -applied frequency null (dc-voltage)
    -room temperature
    -normal atmosphere pressure (760mm Hg)
    -the formic acid as an aqueous solutions (90%)
    I need both dielectric strength value of formic acid and glycerin under same phys-chemical conditions
     
  11. Sep 14, 2006 #10
    like an electrolytic capacitor, no really.
    I´m working with very high dc voltage 50-60 KV at least
    the problem is to store this amount of energy in a relatively small device without lost
    certainly this is a technical challenge.
     
  12. Jan 1, 2012 #11
    glycerin has a dielectric constant of 42.5 so if it's breakdown voltage is high as well it could be used in high voltage capacitors as an alternative to oil.
     
  13. Jan 1, 2012 #12
    Pure water has been used in pulse capacitors. Using water allows the design of a very small high capacitance capacitor.
    Google water capacitor and go to wikipedia.org
     
  14. Jan 1, 2012 #13

    dlgoff

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    It's been over 4 years since the OP asked the question. Had I noticed it back then, I would have recommended a Dielectric gas like Sulfur hexafluoride.

     
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