Formulating the Poincare group and its double cover

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the formulation of the Poincare group and its double cover, specifically exploring the structure of the full and restricted Poincare groups in relation to the Lorentz group. Participants examine the mathematical relationships and properties of these groups, including the roles of various subgroups and the implications of their structures.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that the full Poincare group can be expressed as either $$(\mathbb{Z}_2 \times \mathbb{R}^{3,1}) \rtimes SO(3,1)$$ or $$\mathbb{Z}_2 \rtimes \mathbb{R}^{3,1} \rtimes SO(3,1)$$.
  • Another participant challenges the characterization of $$O(3,1)$$ as $$\mathbb{Z}_2 \rtimes SO(3,1)$$, suggesting instead that the correct formulation is $$O(3,1) = SO(3,1) \rtimes \mathbb{Z}_2$$, emphasizing the normality of the subgroup.
  • A different participant asserts that $$\mathbb{Z}_2$$ is abelian and thus a normal subgroup, but this claim is later contested.
  • One participant elaborates on the structure of $$ISO(3)$$ and its relation to the normal subgroup $$\mathbb{R}^3$$, discussing the implications of reversing the quotient structure and its relation to group theory.
  • Another participant notes that while $$\mathbb{Z}_2$$ is abelian, it does not necessarily imply normality in all contexts, providing an example from the symmetric group $$S_n$$.
  • It is mentioned that index 2 subgroups, such as $$SO(3,1)$$ within $$O(3,1)$$, are always normal, adding complexity to the discussion of subgroup properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the structure and properties of the groups involved, particularly regarding the characterization of $$O(3,1)$$ and the nature of the $$\mathbb{Z}_2$$ subgroup. There is no consensus on the correct formulation of the Poincare group or the properties of the subgroups discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of carefully considering which $$\mathbb{Z}_2$$ subgroup is being referenced in the context of $$O(p,n)$$, as well as the implications of normality and abelian properties in group theory.

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TL;DR
As direct/semi-direct products
Given the full Lorentz group is ##O(3,1)## and the restricted Lorentz group is ##SO(3,1)##, the full Poincare group is ##\mathbb{R}^{3,1} \rtimes O(3,1)## and the restricted Poincare group is ##\mathbb{R}^{3,1} \rtimes SO(3,1)##.

Given that ##O(3,1) = \mathbb{Z}_2 \rtimes SO(3,1)##, how might one formulate the full Poincare group as the direct/semi-direct product of ##\mathbb{Z}_2, \mathbb{R}^{3,1}, SO(3,1)##?

Would it be any of the following?:
$$ (\mathbb{Z}_2 \times \mathbb{R}^{3,1}) \rtimes SO(3,1)$$
$$ \mathbb{Z}_2 \rtimes \mathbb{R}^{3,1} \rtimes SO(3,1)$$


For the full Lorentz group ##O(3,1)## the double cover is ##Pin(3,1)##, and for the restricted Lorentz group is ##SO(3,1)##, the double cover is ##Spin(3,1)##.

And a similar question for the double cover of the full Poincare group?:
$$ (\mathbb{Z}_2 \times \mathbb{R}^{3,1}) \rtimes Spin(3,1)$$
$$ \mathbb{Z}_2 \rtimes \mathbb{R}^{3,1} \rtimes Spin(3,1)$$
 
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I don't think your characterization of O(3,1) as \mathbb{Z}_2\rtimes SO(3,1) isn't quite correct. There is no direct action of SO(3,1) on \mathbb{Z}_2.

Rather, I believe your semi-direct product should be reversed as it is SO(3,1) that is the normal subgroup. Recall that two inversions will result in a (regular or pseudo)rotation. Hence, the adjoint action of an inversion on a rotation will yield a rotation.
Rather: O(3,1) = SO(3,1)\rtimes \mathbb{Z}_2.
 
My understanding is that ##\mathbb{Z}_2## is abelian and therefore a normal subgroup.
 
There are several \mathbb{Z}_2's in O(p,n) you must be careful which one you are considering. Let me think out loud and see where this goes:

Simple example: ISO(3) = \mathbb{R}^3 \rtimes SO(3). The action of the rotation group(s) on the translation subgroup (normal subgroup) is to rotate it as a vector. The quotient structure is defined by the short exact sequence: 1 \to \mathbb{R}^3 \to ISO(3) \to SO(3) \to 1 hence SO(3)=ISO(3)/\mathbb{R}^3. The normality of \mathbb{R}^3 is why the quotient is a group. All standard group theory.

Now when you reverse the quotient structure you get a manifold:
1 \to SO(3)\to ISO(3)\to \mathbb{R}^3 however this ISO(3)/SO(3) =\mathbb{R}^3 is not a group (the cosets fail to close) but rather the manifold of SO(3) subgroups of ISO(3) identifiable with each fixed center point for a given rotation in space. This reversed quotient is in a sense dual to the translation subgroup as it is what gets translated by the adjoint action of the translators on rotators.

If we quotent out the central \mathbb{Z}_2 subgroup of O(n) we get the projective orthogonal group PO(n).
1\to \mathbb{Z}_2 \to O(n)\to PO(n)\to 1
This is not how the special orthogonal subgroup is defined. Rather the special orthogonal group is obtained by removing all inversions (reflections in one direction in the vector irrep). This is a whole manifold of {Z}_2 subgroups none of which are central or normal but are rotated by the SO(n) subgroup.

But note that inversions acting adjointly on rotations are again rotations. Hence SO(n) is a normal subgroup of O(n).
1 \to SO(n)\to O(n)\to O(n)/SO(n) \to 1
Yep, O(n)/SO(n)= \mathbb{Z}_2 is necessarily the image of the inverting and non-inverting orthogonal transformations with the non-inverting mapping to the identity (exactness of the sequence).

While we're here, we can consider the reverse sequence:
1 \to \mathbb{Z}_2 \to O(n)\to Q \to 1
Here the quotient Q is not a group since the first mapping is necessarily (as a reversial of the above) not a whole-space inversion but it maps \mathbb{Z}_2 to one of the vector inversion subgroups in O(n) it is not a normal subgroup. I'm not clear on what Q is; it must incorporate the manifold of inversion subgroups in O(n) but also, I think, the rotations leaving it invariant. I think that will end up being homeomorphic to SO(n) but I'm guessing at this point as I'm now reaching a bit beyond my understanding of the topic.
 
redtree said:
My understanding is that ##\mathbb{Z}_2## is abelian and therefore a normal subgroup.

Abelian subgroups do not need to be normal. For example, if ##\tau## is a transposition in ##S_n## with ##n>2,## then ##\{1,\tau\}## is abelian but not normal in ##S_n.##

On the other hand, index 2 subgroups, like ##SO(3,1)\subset O(3,1),## are always normal.
 

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