Forum seems less active compared to 10 years ago?

[DaveC426913]

No offense to this forum. The rules are indeed strict (I know because I got my fair share of warnings)

Yes, there are fora around with a different ethos. I am on one that is sort of "the other side of the tracks", as it were. A forum can't be all things to all people.

 

[Algr]

TLDR: traffic here is down because this forum is too hostile to new visitors.

I'm pretty sure the above is a fake photo. So not tomorrow's problem, but an ongoing one.

Rather it is the instrument of doom. Monsanto's maxim "Better Living Through Chemistry" has been exchanged for pessimism about industrial agriculture, food additives, Big Pharma,and so on. Today, applied science is seen to be destroying the planet whereas in Oppenheimer's day it was seen to be increasing well being and personal freedom. Many people I talk to even see "Western Science" as a failure for humanity. So it would not surprise me if the interest in STEM has declined.

It isn't so much science itself that has declined, as our faith in political institutions to keep science used safely, instead of used for a few people to accumulate power. We aren't allowed to own things anymore. Progress just eliminates jobs and poisons people.

[Political comments deleted by the Mentors]

Physics Forums is not helpful in this regard. I too have tried to help new users, only to see them shunned and banned by mods for asking forbidden questions. This makes science seem malicious and resembling a false faith to them. It is probably why crackpot theories and paranoid accusations get so many followers. Sometimes you can get better discussions on 4chan.

People today can't tell the difference between rational inquiry and blind scepticism. That distinction is more important than anything else discussed on this forum.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Physics Forums is not helpful in this regard. I too have tried to help new users, only to see them shunned and banned by mods for asking forbidden questions. This makes science seem malicious and resembling a false faith to them. It is probably why crackpot theories and paranoid accusations get so many followers. Sometimes you can get better discussions on 4chan.

We've discussed this over many years. The early days of PF were a wild west and it was a cesspool. Few credible members wanted to participate. We had to decide on fewer members and productive discussions or many members but destructive discussions. We made a choice and we don't regret it for a second.

 

[Algr]

cesspool

Eliminating the sewers does not make a town cleaner.

 

[renormalize]

Eliminating the sewers does not make a town cleaner.

Perhaps not, but banning the heavy defecators from the town certainly does.

 

[symbolipoint]

@Algr
your post #52:

Most of the post I cannot agree and I cannot disagree. My reaction is that your post is interesting.

Your last sentence specifically is good to be reminded about and that I do agree.

People today can't tell the difference between rational inquiry and blind scepticism. That distinction is more important than anything else discussed on this forum.

 

[sbrothy]

Sometimes you can get better discussions on 4chan. [...]

Discussions(?) on 4chan? I was under the impression that 4chan was mostly for "crazy manifestos", "discussions" about "specific demographics" and a certain type of "pediatrics". Truth be told though I haven't had neither the patience nor scatterbrain-ability to "follow" a "discussion" on 4chan.

Talk about cesspool.

 

[Algr]

If you want to help people learn critical thinking skills, you are better of going to 4chan than posting here. On 4chan you will find trolls and edgelords, but you will also find people who honestly want to learn how to evaluate an idea on its own merits, rather than just looking at which authority backs what. Physics Forums, with its emphasis on authority, is not going to be useful for that.

So you can complain about the cesspool, but you need fertilizer to grow crops. And your "heavy defecators" are often where you get your beef from. Galileo is not Bart Sibrel, but the authorities of the time are infamus for not knowing the distinction.

 

[Bystander]

If you want to help people learn critical thinking skills, you are better of going to 4chan than posting here. On 4chan you will find trolls and edgelords, but you will also find people who honestly want to learn how to evaluate an idea on its own merits, rather than just looking at which authority backs what. Physics Forums, with its emphasis on authority, is not going to be useful for that.

So you can complain about the cesspool, but you need fertilizer to grow crops. And your "heavy defecators" are often where you get your beef from. Galileo is not Bart Sibrel, but the authorities of the time are infamus for not knowing the distinction.

Riiggghhhhtttttt............

 

[symbolipoint]

If you want to help people learn critical thinking skills, you are better of going to 4chan than posting here. On 4chan you will find trolls and edgelords, but you will also find people who honestly want to learn how to evaluate an idea on its own merits, rather than just looking at which authority backs what. Physics Forums, with its emphasis on authority, is not going to be useful for that.

So you can complain about the cesspool, but you need fertilizer to grow crops. And your "heavy defecators" are often where you get your beef from. Galileo is not Bart Sibrel, but the authorities of the time are infamus for not knowing the distinction.

Please, mentor or moderator, give a constructive or instructive response to that. physicsforums is not usually as severely bad as he are trying to describe. At least this forum has sections/boards dedicated to thoughts, discussions, experience in Natural Sciences and technologies. I'm not so sure about the other online communities he mentioned.

 

[berkeman]

Riiggghhhhtttttt............

Please, mentor or moderator, give a constructive or instructive response to that. physicsforums is not usually as severely bad as he are trying to describe.

Well, we don't normally comment on the Moderation history of a particular user, so no comment.

 

[Ibix]

Physics Forums, with its emphasis on authority,

It's not "authority" (there's an ongoing thread in Relativity at the moment discussing errors in Susskind's book, for example), but rather there's a minimum standard for what we're willing to spend time and server space on discussing.

I used to participate in a science forum that allowed free discussion of ideas. It didn't attract critical thinkers, it attracted fantasists who believed themselves to be critical thinkers.

 

[weirdoguy]

but you will also find people who honestly want to learn how to evaluate an idea on its own merits

And you really think they will learn anything with a mixture of "normal" people and a bunch of crackpots and trolls? Sorry, but I don't think that PF is to strict for "people who honestly want to learn".

 

[sbrothy]

If you want to help people learn critical thinking skills, you are better of going to 4chan than posting here. On 4chan you will find trolls and edgelords, [...]

Well, I certainly learned... something here. "Edgelord" is a new one to me. But please point me to a serious discussion on 4chan. Any kind of serious discussion really. You might want to do so in a private message though or I suspect it'll be an infraction of the rules here.

PS: I didn't really mean that. Please don't.

 

[Frabjous]

traffic here is down because this forum is too hostile to new visitors.

I am not sure of the causal connection, but there is probably too much snark directed at newbies and definitely too much piling on. Long time users are trying to impress other long time users.

 

[sbrothy]

I am not sure of the causal connection, but there is probably too much snark directed at newbies and definitely too much piling on. Long time users are trying to impress other long time users.

I'll gladly admit that my last comment was unneccessary and perhaps even in bad taste. I apologize for that, but please.... comparing 4chan and this forum seems to me ridiculous.

 

[Frabjous]

I'll gladly admit that my last comment was unneccessary and perhaps even in bad taste. I apologize for that, but please.... comparing 4chan and this forum seems to me ridiculous.

Your comment was not my inspiration.

As for 4chan, this was the top post from google
https://boards.4chan.org/sci//thread/15929841/science-physics-is-so-incredibly-retarded-and
I have no plans on switching.

 

[sbrothy]

Well, we don't normally comment on the Moderation history of a particular user, so no comment.

Sometimes silence is a comment in itself. And rightly so, at least in this case.

EDIT: And probably in my case as well.

 

[sbrothy]

It seems like there must be a "Learned Study" or three that has been done by someone, somewhere!

Anyone have enough Search cleverness to find something ?

Ironically, there seems to be plenty of hits on Google Scholar but they all seem to be about 10 years old.

EDIT: I left out "or more" to serve the irony.

 

[Algr]

Please, mentor or moderator, give a constructive or instructive response to that.

So... you are asking the authority for a response on if PF is too deferential to authority. I thank the moderators for not getting sucked into an ad hominem trap.

I'm not asking anyone to switch to 4chan. I am saying that there shouldn't be any situation where 4chan is a better place to discuss an idea. So if that ever happens, it is a concern.

Distinguishing between legitimate criticism and trolling is hard. Democracy is hard. But the alternative can take you to places that are hard to escape from.

 

[symbolipoint]

From symbolipoint

Please, mentor or moderator, give a constructive or instructive response to that.

and then from Algr

So... you are asking the authority for a response on if PF is too deferential to authority. I thank the moderators for not getting sucked into an ad hominem trap.

NO. Members, not to mention mods and admins, will strongly disagree with most of your opening post on this topic. I take your opening post as mostly the heavy exaggeration of a problem of authority and I try to invite an administrator or moderator to respond, possibly more skillfully and knowledgeably than I could.

 

[berkeman]

Thread paused for a moment...

 

[Drakkith]

If you want to help people learn critical thinking skills, you are better of going to 4chan than posting here. On 4chan you will find trolls and edgelords, but you will also find people who honestly want to learn how to evaluate an idea on its own merits, rather than just looking at which authority backs what. Physics Forums, with its emphasis on authority, is not going to be useful for that.

First, note that neither PF nor 4chan has learning critical thinking as one of their core goals, so any improvement in critical thinking is going to happen as a result of learning or doing something else. I personally don't have any way of meaningfully and accurately quantifying or measuring improvement in critical thinking, so all I really have is my personal opinion.

All I'll say is to ask this: Would you rather have a discussion where disagreement typically involves linking different journal articles and posting equations or a discussion where there is a non-insignificant chance you will be called names and continually told you're that energy/work/force/gravity/some other basic physics concept doesn't exist?

Personally I find it hard to learn anything when the other side's standards are more akin to Blue-and-Orange morality than anything else.

So you can complain about the cesspool, but you need fertilizer to grow crops. And your "heavy defecators" are often where you get your beef from. Galileo is not Bart Sibrel, but the authorities of the time are infamus for not knowing the distinction.

I call these people 'babies', and I don't find babies to be very in useful learning anything from. They smell, they throw tantrums, and you're almost always better off not arguing with them in the first place.

 

[berkeman]

Thread will remain closed. Thanks everybody.