Forum seems less active compared to 10 years ago?

[Greg Bernhardt]

I remember this forum being very lively and active about 5-10 years ago. What has happened since then? Sorry if this posting is inappropriate, I'm not frequently active myself so I've been out of the loop.

PF was likely a bit more active 10 years ago. There are many reasons for that, like Google algos, ChatGPT, Stackoverflows, social media etc, etc. However, we're still absolutely the single dominant science community on the internet. The quality of discussions continues to increase and community relationships are stronger than ever.

 

[lavinia]

@lavinia , I am personally dubious of your claim that there might be a decline in young people's interest in STEM, mainly because you are presuming that people interested in STEM would necessarily come to PF first, as opposed to other sites on the Internet.

That being said, as @Frabjous has pointed out, it is difficult to assess the speculation you made without statistics on the following:

1. The posting history over the past several years (which, according to @Vanadium 50 as per his post #25, is available in raw form in terms of number of messages, and someone will have to actually count the number of posts).

2, The age distribution of the posters on the forums (which as far as I know is not consistently available).

You are absolutely correct. I was throwing it out there partly because my anecdotal experience has seen what appears to be a shift in the interests of young people. I did look for articles and there does seem to be data that shows a decline in interest in STEM but I didn't post any links because I have no way to evaluate the surveys. Still if you like it would be interesting to see if any of these studies carry statistical significance.

My observation in the mathematics forum is that the frequency of good questions and follow up dialogue has declined.

I have no opinion about the other forums .

A thought I had after watching Oppenheimer was that the success of the A Bomb and the onset of the Cold War made STEM a national priority and young people were inspired to be part of the great national STEM project. Today I see pessimism about the social benefit of science. There is a huge change. The bomb is no longer sexy as it was in the 1950's (In fact, the bikini bathing suit was named after Bikini Atoll. Talk about a woman being a bombshell.) Rather it is the instrument of doom. Monsanto's maxim "Better Living Through Chemistry" has been exchanged for pessimism about industrial agriculture, food additives, Big Pharma,and so on. Today, applied science is seen to be destroying the planet whereas in Oppenheimer's day it was seen to be increasing well being and personal freedom. Many people I talk to even see "Western Science" as a failure for humanity. So it would not surprise me if the interest in STEM has declined.

 

[StatGuy2000]

You are absolutely correct. I was throwing it out there partly because my anecdotal experience has seen what appears to be a shift in the interests of young people. I did look for articles and there does seem to be data that shows a decline in interest in STEM but I didn't post any links because I have no way to evaluate the surveys. Still if you like it would be interesting to see if any of these studies carry statistical significance.

My observation in the mathematics forum is that the frequency of good questions and follow up dialogue has declined.

I have no opinion about the other forums .

A thought I had after watching Oppenheimer was that the success of the A Bomb and the onset of the Cold War made STEM a national priority and young people were inspired to be part of the great national STEM project. Today I see pessimism about the social benefit of science. There is a huge change. The bomb is no longer sexy as it was in the 1950's (In fact, the bikini bathing suit was named after Bikini Atoll. Talk about a woman being a bombshell.) Rather it is the instrument of doom. Monsanto's maxim "Better Living Through Chemistry" has been exchanged for pessimism about industrial agriculture, food additives, Big Pharma,and so on. Today, applied science is seen to be destroying the planet whereas in Oppenheimer's day it was seen to be increasing well being and personal freedom. Many people I talk to even see "Western Science" as a failure for humanity. So it would not surprise me if the interest in STEM has declined.

It is interesting what you seem to have witnessed, because I have seen other anecdotal reports indicating that young people have had an increased interest in science and technology, at least in terms of which fields to pursue their studies. Some of this may be motivated due to the perception of better career opportunities with a STEM degree, but there is also a genuine interest I detect in applying the understanding developed from science to help address and solve the pressing problems of our day, such as climate change.

So I do not see the extent of the pessimism of the social benefit of science that you speak of.

What I do see is the questioning of the social benefit of big business (e.g. Monsanto, Big Pharma) and to a certain degree of capitalism more generally, often due to legitimate cases of abuses over the years (with the caveat that this is also anecdotal -- I do not have data or statistics to back up my speculation here). This pessimism you speak of is not new (in fact, aspects of this can be traced all the way back to the 1970s and 1980s), and which I feel is separate to people's attitudes to science (especially the younger generations today). I won't speak much further about this, as this would veer the topic toward broader political issues which are outside the purview of PF.

 

[Nugatory]

A thought I had after watching Oppenheimer was that the success of the A Bomb and the onset of the Cold War made STEM a national priority and young people were inspired to be part of the great national STEM project.

A bit of digression....
It was indeed the Cold War, and the specific catalyst was the Soviet Union's Sputnik launch.

 

[Tom.G]

Today, applied science is seen to be destroying the planet whereas in Oppenheimer's day it was seen to be increasing well being and personal freedom.

A case of more data points yields more accurate conclusions? (I hope not!)

 

[Borek]

I do have hard data: traffic on other forums went down, on one that I observe closely it is now about five times lower than it was around the 2012/3, when it was at its peak. Measured by "new threads per year".

 

[weirdoguy]

traffic on other forums went down

Yep, one polish mathematical forum where I am a moderator is almost dead, and it really was the most popular mathematical forum when it was at its peak.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I do have hard data: traffic on other forums went down, on one that I observe closely it is now about five times lower than it was around the 2012/3, when it was at its peak. Measured by "new threads per year".

Interesting. I am curious as to reasons for the decline in traffic.

Perhaps those interested in science are finding their interests away from forums like PF in favour of other websites (e.g. Reddit).

Or perhaps the decline could be part of a broader cyclical pattern, in which PF and other forums are at the trough where 2012 and 2013 were the peak.

 

[f95toli]

A couple of observations.
Firstly, I believe the moderation is perhaps a bit stricter and the list of banned topic a bit longer than it was 10 years ago. Often, the most popular threads (which presumably drive traffic?) are about controversial topics. There seem(?) to be fewer threads about quantum teleportation etc; and even the quantum interpretations threads seem calmer since they moved into their own sub-forum

Secondly. young people use internet in a different way (or at least the young person I have the opportunity to study). I started using forums back in the mid 90s (usenet) and was a member of several forums all over the internet when I was a student.
I suspect at least some of that type of traffic was taken over by Facebook groups. Now that only old people (or so I am told) use Facebook "communicating with others" seems for many young people mean Instagram or maybe Whatsapp (or some other messaging app). I suspect the idea of joining a forum on a specific website is quite alien to many young people
That said, Discord seems to a thing; and this is very ,very similar to the chatrooms of the 90s; maybe forums will make a comeback as well?

 

[mfb]

But has there been any significant discoveries in physics over the past 10 years, or just more and more precise measurement?

Gravitational waves, tetraquarks and pentaquarks, extrasolar neutrinos (excluding supernovae), CP violation in the charm sector. Large-scale exoplanet discoveries, Hubble tension, much better estimates for dark matter and dark energy density. That's just some examples from particle physics and closely related fields, not all of physics.

Almost all forums saw a decline in activity in the last 10 years. Many of them shut down completely or became essentially inactive. PF is still active, just not with the same posts per day as 10 years ago.

 

[StatGuy2000]

A couple of observations.
Firstly, I believe the moderation is perhaps a bit stricter and the list of banned topic a bit longer than it was 10 years ago. Often, the most popular threads (which presumably drive traffic?) are about controversial topics. There seem(?) to be fewer threads about quantum teleportation etc; and even the quantum interpretations threads seem calmer since they moved into their own sub-forum

Secondly. young people use internet in a different way (or at least the young person I have the opportunity to study). I started using forums back in the mid 90s (usenet) and was a member of several forums all over the internet when I was a student.
I suspect at least some of that type of traffic was taken over by Facebook groups. Now that only old people (or so I am told) use Facebook "communicating with others" seems for many young people mean Instagram or maybe Whatsapp (or some other messaging app). I suspect the idea of joining a forum on a specific website is quite alien to many young people
That said, Discord seems to a thing; and this is very ,very similar to the chatrooms of the 90s; maybe forums will make a comeback as well?

I do not see Instagram as lending itself to communicating about science, given its primarily visual nature (people tend to go on Instagram to compare and contrast pictures or video clips people have taken through their phones). WhatsApp is primarily used as a means of texting and calling individual people, so I see it as unlikely as a place where a broad group of people would communicate.

My own speculation is that the primary way younger people interested in science would go to discuss about science (apart from forums like ours) would be the following:

1. Reddit

2. Discord (I myself am a part of Discord as well -- I use the Discord chatting feature to talk to a dear friend who moved to British Columbia).

 

[TeethWhitener]

But has there been any significant discoveries in physics over the past 10 years, or just more and more precise measurement?

Gravitational waves, tetraquarks and pentaquarks, extrasolar neutrinos (excluding supernovae), CP violation in the charm sector. Large-scale exoplanet discoveries, Hubble tension, much better estimates for dark matter and dark energy density. That's just some examples from particle physics and closely related fields, not all of physics.

Roughly the last 10 years have also seen time crystals (AMO physics) and the thermodynamic uncertainty relation (stat mech) in theoretical physics, as well as room temperature exciton condensates and moire physics in twisted 2D materials (both condensed matter/solid state) in experimental physics, just to add to the list. Not to mention the tons of work being done in active matter/soft matter/biophysics, etc.

Edit: yes, I know all of these discoveries have theoretical and experimental support, but I was trying to grab examples from a number of different "kinds" of physics.

 

[f95toli]

I do not see Instagram as lending itself to communicating about science, given its primarily visual nature (people tend to go on Instagram to compare and contrast pictures or video clips people have taken through their phones). WhatsApp is primarily used as a means of texting and calling individual people, so I see it as unlikely as a place where a broad group of people would communicate

That was sort of my point; it seems(?) methods (apps, websites etc) which involve directly communicating with a lot of people you don't necessarily know (such as Facebook) are no longer very popular with young people. When it comes to actual discussions my observation is that many prefer to stick to "closed" communities (such as whatsapp groups) where only people they somehow know can see what they post/ask.
I don't see Instagram (and certainly not tiktok) as being similar to a forum, from what I've seen these are more about one-way communication where people post "content" not necessarily expecting to create a discussion with strangers.

Edit: Also, as has been stated above;' this is not an issue only affect science forums. It seems to affect ALL forum with Reddit being the notable exception.,

 

[Tom.G]

It seems like there must be a "Learned Study" or three that has been done by someone, somewhere!

Anyone have enough Search cleverness to find something?

 

[erobz]

How about this for a theory. Video feeds. People can watch other people do dumb things almost indefinitely now. Arguably, its more practical to their daily lives to do so, as opposed to endlessly pondering our existential crisis and the invisible cogs that create it. Science says there is no ultimate meaning, so people basically give up. Maybe that's just me being melodramatic.

 

[TeethWhitener]

Science says there is no ultimate meaning

Science says nothing about meaning; if you're looking for it there, you've already gone astray.

Forum activity across the board may be down, but also consider that it's summer and school has only recently started up (at least in the US). There always seems to be a dip in activity during the summer months--and a flurry of activity during exam season.

 

[symbolipoint]

Is every single message from 10 years ago here? No.
Is every single message from 10 days ago here? No.
Spam gets removed, and crackpottery sometimes gets removed, and rarely non-crackpot instances of bad behavior get removed.

But counting seems like a better plan than "it seems to me".

Two things to watch for - one is that there have been reorganizations, so some sections didn't exist then, and another is that MHB content has been merged into PF.

Some automated system of counting and data treatment?

If no then back to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
..., 6, 7, ....

 

[Charles Link]

It seems to me that even 5 years ago, if you googled a science topic, the search engine was likely to send you to at least one Physics Forums thread. That still happens sometimes these days, but not as often as previously.

 

[sbrothy]

I do not see Instagram as lending itself to communicating about science, given its primarily visual nature (people tend to go on Instagram to compare and contrast pictures or video clips people have taken through their phones). WhatsApp is primarily used as a means of texting and calling individual people, so I see it as unlikely as a place where a broad group of people would communicate.

My own speculation is that the primary way younger people interested in science would go to discuss about science (apart from forums like ours) would be the following:

1. Reddit

2. Discord (I myself am a part of Discord as well -- I use the Discord chatting feature to talk to a dear friend who moved to British Columbia).

There's also this pinterest.com thingy. Dont despair though. IRC may not be what it once was but if I need instant help on geeky topics thats where I'll go. Old-fashioned Bulletin Board Systems may not be around anymore but IRC is still alive.

No offense to this forum. The rules are indeed strict (I know because I got my fair share of warnings), but I'm sure that's also what attracts well-educated people and keep'em all doing their best.

 

[sbrothy]

It seems to me that even 5 years ago, if you googled a science topic, the search engine was likely to send you to at least one Physics Forums thread. That still happens sometimes these days, but not as often as previously.

Perhaps physicsforums.com needs some search engine optimization. :)

 

[DaveC426913]

No offense to this forum. The rules are indeed strict (I know because I got my fair share of warnings)

Yes, there are fora around with a different ethos. I am on one that is sort of "the other side of the tracks", as it were. A forum can't be all things to all people.

 

[Algr]

TLDR: traffic here is down because this forum is too hostile to new visitors.

I'm pretty sure the above is a fake photo. So not tomorrow's problem, but an ongoing one.

Rather it is the instrument of doom. Monsanto's maxim "Better Living Through Chemistry" has been exchanged for pessimism about industrial agriculture, food additives, Big Pharma,and so on. Today, applied science is seen to be destroying the planet whereas in Oppenheimer's day it was seen to be increasing well being and personal freedom. Many people I talk to even see "Western Science" as a failure for humanity. So it would not surprise me if the interest in STEM has declined.

It isn't so much science itself that has declined, as our faith in political institutions to keep science used safely, instead of used for a few people to accumulate power. We aren't allowed to own things anymore. Progress just eliminates jobs and poisons people.

[Political comments deleted by the Mentors]

Physics Forums is not helpful in this regard. I too have tried to help new users, only to see them shunned and banned by mods for asking forbidden questions. This makes science seem malicious and resembling a false faith to them. It is probably why crackpot theories and paranoid accusations get so many followers. Sometimes you can get better discussions on 4chan.

People today can't tell the difference between rational inquiry and blind scepticism. That distinction is more important than anything else discussed on this forum.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Physics Forums is not helpful in this regard. I too have tried to help new users, only to see them shunned and banned by mods for asking forbidden questions. This makes science seem malicious and resembling a false faith to them. It is probably why crackpot theories and paranoid accusations get so many followers. Sometimes you can get better discussions on 4chan.

We've discussed this over many years. The early days of PF were a wild west and it was a cesspool. Few credible members wanted to participate. We had to decide on fewer members and productive discussions or many members but destructive discussions. We made a choice and we don't regret it for a second.

 

[Algr]

cesspool

Eliminating the sewers does not make a town cleaner.

 

[renormalize]

Eliminating the sewers does not make a town cleaner.

Perhaps not, but banning the heavy defecators from the town certainly does.

 

[symbolipoint]

@Algr
your post #52:

Most of the post I cannot agree and I cannot disagree. My reaction is that your post is interesting.

Your last sentence specifically is good to be reminded about and that I do agree.

People today can't tell the difference between rational inquiry and blind scepticism. That distinction is more important than anything else discussed on this forum.

 

[sbrothy]

Sometimes you can get better discussions on 4chan. [...]

Discussions(?) on 4chan? I was under the impression that 4chan was mostly for "crazy manifestos", "discussions" about "specific demographics" and a certain type of "pediatrics". Truth be told though I haven't had neither the patience nor scatterbrain-ability to "follow" a "discussion" on 4chan.

Talk about cesspool.

 

[Algr]

If you want to help people learn critical thinking skills, you are better of going to 4chan than posting here. On 4chan you will find trolls and edgelords, but you will also find people who honestly want to learn how to evaluate an idea on its own merits, rather than just looking at which authority backs what. Physics Forums, with its emphasis on authority, is not going to be useful for that.

So you can complain about the cesspool, but you need fertilizer to grow crops. And your "heavy defecators" are often where you get your beef from. Galileo is not Bart Sibrel, but the authorities of the time are infamus for not knowing the distinction.

 

[Bystander]

If you want to help people learn critical thinking skills, you are better of going to 4chan than posting here. On 4chan you will find trolls and edgelords, but you will also find people who honestly want to learn how to evaluate an idea on its own merits, rather than just looking at which authority backs what. Physics Forums, with its emphasis on authority, is not going to be useful for that.

So you can complain about the cesspool, but you need fertilizer to grow crops. And your "heavy defecators" are often where you get your beef from. Galileo is not Bart Sibrel, but the authorities of the time are infamus for not knowing the distinction.

Riiggghhhhtttttt............

 

[symbolipoint]

If you want to help people learn critical thinking skills, you are better of going to 4chan than posting here. On 4chan you will find trolls and edgelords, but you will also find people who honestly want to learn how to evaluate an idea on its own merits, rather than just looking at which authority backs what. Physics Forums, with its emphasis on authority, is not going to be useful for that.

So you can complain about the cesspool, but you need fertilizer to grow crops. And your "heavy defecators" are often where you get your beef from. Galileo is not Bart Sibrel, but the authorities of the time are infamus for not knowing the distinction.

Please, mentor or moderator, give a constructive or instructive response to that. physicsforums is not usually as severely bad as he are trying to describe. At least this forum has sections/boards dedicated to thoughts, discussions, experience in Natural Sciences and technologies. I'm not so sure about the other online communities he mentioned.