Fourier Transform: Separate High & Low Frequency Signals

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of Fourier transforms and filtering techniques to isolate low-frequency signals from high-frequency noise in a set of experimental data. Participants explore various filtering methods, including low-pass and band-stop filters, and their implications on signal integrity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about using a Fourier transform to isolate a low-frequency signal from a high-frequency one, mentioning the use of two-dimensional arrays for data collection.
  • Another participant suggests that a low-pass filter could effectively isolate the low-frequency signal by zeroing out high frequencies in the frequency domain.
  • Concerns are raised about the characteristics of the low-frequency signal, which appears "peaky," indicating the presence of high frequencies that may complicate filtering.
  • Some participants discuss the limitations of low-pass filters, noting that they can only smooth out peaks and may not achieve the desired output if the signal contains sharp transitions.
  • There is a suggestion that a band-pass filter with a narrow pass-band could be more appropriate for isolating specific frequencies, though it is noted that such filters cannot produce the desired output of a peak from a cusp-like input.
  • One participant acknowledges the potential for using a band-stop filter if the sine wave to be removed is narrow-band in the Fourier transform.
  • Another participant clarifies that zeroing frequencies in the frequency domain is often considered a crude method due to potential artifacts in the time domain after transformation.
  • Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding digital filtering techniques and the implications of different filter designs on the output signal.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the effectiveness of Fourier transforms versus digital filtering methods, with no consensus on the best approach to achieve the desired signal isolation. Some advocate for low-pass filters, while others suggest band-stop filters or question the utility of Fourier transforms in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the characteristics of the signals involved, such as sharp peaks and narrow-band components, complicate the filtering process. There is also mention of the potential for artifacts when applying certain filtering techniques, particularly in relation to the impulse response of filters.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in signal processing, particularly those working with experimental data in physics or engineering who are exploring methods to isolate specific frequency components from complex signals.

ponjavic
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I have two signals one continuous oscillating at a high frequency and another one instantaneous at a lower frequency.

How can I use a Fourier transform to single out the low frequency one?

See at attached picture for what I am trying to do.

Edit:
Yeah by the way, data is collected in a two dimensional arrays (so discrete)
 

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ponjavic said:
I have two signals one continuous oscillating at a high frequency and another one instantaneous at a lower frequency.

How can I use a Fourier transform to single out the low frequency one?

I am not quite sure what your graphs depict, but if your low-frequency signal is really low frequency and the other is high frequency, then obviously a low pass filter will do. A crude low pass is obtained by transforming to the frequency domain, set all frequencies that are too high to zero and transform back to the time domain.

If your 2nd graph is supposed to be the "low frequency" signal, you are in trouble, because it is very "peaky", i.e. the peak has a sharp tip. This indicates that you have rather high frequencies there. The low pass would round out the tip. If you cannot live with that, I would not know off hand how to proceed.

Harald.
 
Why do you want to use a Fourier transform? Why not just run the data sets through a DSP lowpass filter of some order?
 
The FFT technique given by birulami is actually a perfect digital filter, not a crude one. The problem is that you have to have the entire signal in memory before you can take the FFT. In some situations this is fine; in most, it's not.

- Warren
 
birulami said:
I am not quite sure what your graphs depict, but if your low-frequency signal is really low frequency and the other is high frequency, then obviously a low pass filter will do. A crude low pass is obtained by transforming to the frequency domain, set all frequencies that are too high to zero and transform back to the time domain.

If your 2nd graph is supposed to be the "low frequency" signal, you are in trouble, because it is very "peaky", i.e. the peak has a sharp tip. This indicates that you have rather high frequencies there. The low pass would round out the tip. If you cannot live with that, I would not know off hand how to proceed.

Harald.

First graph is what I have, constant vibration due to hydraulics and a peak which is a measurement of force when breaking a specimen. 2nd graph shows what I need, removal of the vibration.

I thought it was possible to single out a frequency response using Fourier transform. I guess filters could be used but wouldn't they affect the peak? This is a very accurate experiment so if Fourier transform is better I'd like to do that. Using matlab.
 
ponjavic,

What birulami was trying to say is that a low-pass filter cannot make a signal more peaky -- it can only smooth out peaks.

When you speak of isolating a specific frequency, you're talking about band-pass filter with a narrow pass-band. This is a well-understood sort of digital filter, but it cannot produce the output you claim to desire. The only output you can get from such a filter is a sine wave with arbitrary amplitude.

However, your second graph showed a "hump" in the input being transformed into a "peak" in the output. This is not going to happen with any normally-designed filter. The "peak" in your output is a cusp -- an instantaneously change in the derivatives of the signal, and actually contains frequency components all the way out to infinity.

The signals that you drew were not just a simple superposition of sine waves (the kind of well-behaved input people usually consider when thinking about filters). Perhaps you're not really looking for a linear system at all, and would be better off using something else.

Can you draw us a more realistic example of the input and output you're trying to achieve?

- Warren
 
chroot said:
ponjavic,

What birulami was trying to say is that a low-pass filter cannot make a signal more peaky -- it can only smooth out peaks.

When you speak of isolating a specific frequency, you're talking about band-pass filter with a narrow pass-band. This is a well-understood sort of digital filter, but it cannot produce the output you claim to desire. The only output you can get from such a filter is a sine wave with arbitrary amplitude.

However, your second graph showed a "hump" in the input being transformed into a "peak" in the output. This is not going to happen with any normally-designed filter. The "peak" in your output is a cusp -- an instantaneously change in the derivatives of the signal, and actually contains frequency components all the way out to infinity.

The signals that you drew were not just a simple superposition of sine waves (the kind of well-behaved input people usually consider when thinking about filters). Perhaps you're not really looking for a linear system at all, and would be better off using something else.

Can you draw us a more realistic example of the input and output you're trying to achieve?

- Warren
Yeah sorry I see what the problem is now. The peaks in the first and second pictures are supposed to be the same (except for the fact the the first peak is influenced by the small sine wave). So all I want to do is to remove the effect of the sine wave, extruding the peak from the signal.
 
Then you're looking for a basic low-pass digital filter.

- Warren
 
ponjavic said:
Yeah sorry I see what the problem is now. The peaks in the first and second pictures are supposed to be the same (except for the fact the the first peak is influenced by the small sine wave). So all I want to do is to remove the effect of the sine wave, extruding the peak from the signal.

If the sine wave you want to remove is itself really narrow-band, i.e. in the Fourier transform only very few frequencies are non-zero, you may want to use a carefully crafted band-stop filter. Just setting these frequencies to zero and transforming back may help. Someone said that zeroing frequencies is a perfect filter, while I called it crude. I say 'crude', because this will usually generate nasty sidelines when transformed back. I am not an expert in digital filter design, but that much I do remember:-)

Harald.
 
  • #10
birulami said:
If the sine wave you want to remove is itself really narrow-band, i.e. in the Fourier transform only very few frequencies are non-zero, you may want to use a carefully crafted band-stop filter. Just setting these frequencies to zero and transforming back may help. Someone said that zeroing frequencies is a perfect filter, while I called it crude. I say 'crude', because this will usually generate nasty sidelines when transformed back. I am not an expert in digital filter design, but that much I do remember:-)

Harald.

Well, you mean a perfect brick-wall filter in the frequency domain looks like a sinc function in the time-domain. It has a pretty nasty impulse response.

- Warren
 
  • #11
Thank you guys that should do it =)

I thought of a filter as well but didn't realize that you could do it digitally (stupid) thought of making an actual filter for the signal :P

Anyways my coordinator definitely confused me with the Fourier transform but I'm on track now
 

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