Free fall and blue shift question.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of gravitational fields on light frequency as experienced by an observer in free fall towards a massive body. Participants explore concepts such as blue shift, red shift, and the implications of the strong equivalence principle, considering both the observer's frame and the perspective of an external observer.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that light bouncing between mirrors in free fall should experience blue shift as they approach a massive body.
  • Another participant counters that in a freely falling frame, no blue or red shift would be observed due to the strong equivalence principle.
  • A participant raises the scenario of an external observer watching the free-falling observer, noting that the light would be shifted back when observed from outside.
  • It is proposed that an external observer would see different frequencies for photons moving upwards and downwards due to the Doppler effect, while also considering the motion of the neon atoms.
  • One participant introduces Schwarzschild coordinates, explaining that a free-falling observer from infinity would see light as red shifted, while a stationary observer would see it as blue shifted.
  • There is a discussion about two free-falling observers measuring light, with one bouncing it between mirrors, suggesting they would observe the same redshift when light reaches the lower mirror, depending on the distance between the mirrors.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the significance of the distance between the mirrors affects whether any shifting occurs at all, indicating a complexity in the situation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effects of gravitational fields on light frequency, with no consensus reached on the outcomes of the scenarios discussed. The implications of the strong equivalence principle and the role of observer frames remain contested.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations regarding assumptions about distances and the frames of reference involved, as well as the complexities introduced by the presence of mirrors and neon atoms.

cragar
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Lets say I am in free-fall towards some massive body and I have 2 mirrors and photons bouncing in between them. Now as I fall closer to the massive body the light should get blue-shifted right? And let's say that the frequency of light that I started with is x. As I fall closer I put a jar of neon atoms in between the mirrors. And let's say that is takes x+d frequency to excite these neon atoms. By now the light has been shifted to x+d. But in my frame wouldn't I still see frequency x. Or does the energy levels of the atom change as we fall down?
 
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In your freely falling frame, you would not see any blue or red shift of the light. This is easily derivable from the strong equivalence principle.

The blue/red shifting of light occurs for observers stationary with respect to the gravitating body.
 
ok so what if someone is watching me fall. But I guess when the light reaches them it will get shifted back.
 
If someone is watching you fall, he will observe different frequencies for the upwards and the downwards photons, as the mirrors are moving and therefore inducing a doppler effect. At the same time, the neon atoms would move, too. If you calculate these numbers, you get the same physics (e.g. the frequency, observed by the neon atoms) in both frames.
 
cragar said:
Lets say I am in free-fall towards some massive body and I have 2 mirrors and photons bouncing in between them. Now as I fall closer to the massive body the light should get blue-shifted right?
Not necessarily. In Schwarzschild coordinates, an observer that is free falling from infinity sees light from a source at infinity as red shifted by a factor of 1/(1+√(GM/r)) while an observer that is stationary will see the light as blue shifted by a factor of √(1-GM/r) using units of c=1. (That is without the mirrors.)

Now if we have two observers free falling radially together and one is continuously measuring the light from the source at infinity and the other is bouncing light from the same source between mirrors, then I assume they would see the same redshift when the light reaches the lower mirror. If my assumption is correct then the free falling observer would see an increasing red shift of his photon over time, each time it reaches the lower mirror.
 
yuiop said:
Now if we have two observers free falling radially together and one is continuously measuring the light from the source at infinity and the other is bouncing light from the same source between mirrors, then I assume they would see the same redshift when the light reaches the lower mirror. If my assumption is correct then the free falling observer would see an increasing red shift of his photon over time, each time it reaches the lower mirror.
It kind of hinges on whether we consider the distance between the two mirrors as significant. If we don't there is no shifting whatsoever, if we do it is more complicated.
 

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