News French Senate Approves a Ban on Burqas

[JaredJames]

Has it been so long since high school?

3 years (from my UK perspective). Here, everyone has a school uniform so within school it's not an issue. Out of school, nobody I knew was bullied for wearing 'the wrong clothes'. In fact, so far as the local area I live goes, anyone in clothes deemed too skimpy is more likely to be called a slut for said clothing decisions.

It may come down to a culture difference between UK and US then.

In the UK, bullying so far as clothes go is more likely to be because of them not being the 'correct' brand or due to appearance (strictly speaking a reason for the burqa).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1299664/More-half-schoolgirls-bullied-appearance.html

 

[nismaratwork]

I think there is a key difference though. Not much, but it's there. A western girl who chooses not to wear skimpy clothes doesn't get any different treatment to one who does. Where as a girl who wears a burqa (or KKK outfit) is under pressure to. Say it's a choice all you like but the fact the scriptures say they must dress modestly (and this is their idea of modestly) means they can face persecution if they don't conform.

Although a western girl may feel pressured into wearing skimpy clothes, there isn't a 'bad reaction' to not doing so.

Like I said, it's not much of a difference and in some cases you can equate the two, but it is an essential difference.

I'm not talking about peer pressure, I'm talking about parents who dress their kids up like little barbies and the like. I would add, that "not fitting in" is pretty rough (although having never been female...?), and if your expectations are shaped at a young age that you need to show T&A to get attention... it's just too bad.

 

[JaredJames]

I'm talking about parents who dress their kids up like little barbies and the like.

I find that on a similar level to the KKK child above. No idea what the clothes they wear means and just accept that to be correct. Just saw a documentary on child beauty pageants and I'm disgusted by the way parents push their children, especially when you see how upset those who don't win get.

The states seem to have laws banning public face covering or hiding your identity in other words. Now this is a very broad law and doesn't target anyone in particular. Now unless anyone can tell me otherwise (as in, does this law cover all face covering or just burqas?), I think the burqa law definitely targets Muslims (not saying this is good or bad here, just that is how it appears. I have made my views on good / bad it rather clear previously).

 

[Proton Soup]

I find that on a similar level to the KKK child above. No idea what the clothes they wear means and just accept that to be correct. Just saw a documentary on child beauty pageants and I'm disgusted by the way parents push their children, especially when you see how upset those who don't win get.

The states seem to have laws banning public face covering or hiding your identity in other words. Now this is a very broad law and doesn't target anyone in particular. Now unless anyone can tell me otherwise (as in, does this law cover all face covering or just burqas?), I think the burqa law definitely targets Muslims (not saying this is good or bad here, just that is how it appears. I have made my views on good / bad it rather clear previously).

i think this is false. it is not muslims in general that are being targeted. it is a radical political element that just happens to be muslim. it would be like claiming banning hoods in the US was an attack on christians.

i have to say also that i do enjoy the turn this thread has taken (burqa muslims = KKK). i believe this is closer to the truth of the matter.

 

[nismaratwork]

i think this is false. it is not muslims in general that are being targeted. it is a radical political element that just happens to be muslim. it would be like claiming banning hoods in the US was an attack on christians.

i have to say also that i do enjoy the turn this thread has taken (burqa muslims = KKK). i believe this is closer to the truth of the matter.

The differnence being that the getup of the KKK is a signal that there is an externalization of hate... the people in a burqa aren't declaring any such thing. In a way, a woman in a burqa is more like the target of a kind of systemic hate... or at least what I would consider to be human rights abuse.

 

[Proton Soup]

The differnence being that the getup of the KKK is a signal that there is an externalization of hate... the people in a burqa aren't declaring any such thing. In a way, a woman in a burqa is more like the target of a kind of systemic hate... or at least what I would consider to be human rights abuse.

no, the woman is not being targeted. in this case, she's more like that child dressed in the klan robe. i don't believe that the reality for the woman in this case is that she is somehow exercising her religious freedom. the reality is probably much like it was in afghanistan - she isn't given a choice. it is being forced upon her by her husband and only serves to further isolate her in french society. it is a kind of subjugation not unlike slavery. the parallels between this and the KKK are numerous.

 

[Monique]

Yes, it would be supremely relevant, because we'd be back at some inter-cultural squabble instead of an issue of public safety. I'm not trying to mess with you here Monique, and I've expressed my willingness to discuss the broader issues you're bringing to the table in the appropriate thread, so please don't take this the wrong way. There is a serious difference between acting in the interest of public safety vs. cultural preservation. The former is always something which must be kept in balance, the latter is inexcusable.

Can you show me evidence that the French law is not acting out of interest of the public safety and that the sociological argument that I put forth has nothing to do with cultural preservation? All you seem to be doing is pushing things aside, without giving argument besides something that can be interpreted as "because I say so".

The states seem to have laws banning public face covering or hiding your identity in other words. Now this is a very broad law and doesn't target anyone in particular. Now unless anyone can tell me otherwise (as in, does this law cover all face covering or just burqas?), I think the burqa law definitely targets Muslims (not saying this is good or bad here, just that is how it appears. I have made my views on good / bad it rather clear previously).

The anti-mask law was instated by Martin E. Trapp as a direct response to the Klu Klux Klan (some anti-mask laws pre-date the rise of the Klan, for instance the one in New York).

 

[BobG]

Can you show me evidence that the French law is not acting out of interest of the public safety and that the sociological argument that I put forth has nothing to do with cultural preservation? All you seem to be doing is pushing things aside, without giving argument besides something that can be interpreted as "because I say so".

Sarkozy, talking in the ornate chamber of the Château de Versailles:

In our country we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity.

The burka is not a religious sign. It is a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement. It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic.

Many moderate Muslims also see burqas as a symbol of female subservience and two of the three women Muslims in the cabinet support the ban.

But, all through the debate, the primary issue for just about all parties focuses on two issues:

1) The religious symbolism of the burqa and the ban being an attack on Islam
2) The gender symbolism of the burqa and ban being an attack on women's inequality

And Sarkozy's self expressed motivation for the burqa ban has nothing to do with public safety.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6557252.ece

 

[JaredJames]

The anti-mask law was instated by Martin E. Trapp as a direct response to the Klu Klux Klan (some anti-mask laws pre-date the rise of the Klan, for instance the one in New York).

Sorry, I was asking if the French ban is specifically against the burqa or does it also extend to all face covering? If it is only against the burqa and people can still walk around in a mast then I'd say the law is targeting the Muslims. Again, my opinions on the law are detailed on previous pages and as far as this post goes, in summary, I like the law. (Don't assume I think this means we should target Muslims, far from it, but because of what the burqa symbolises.)

The state laws seem rather general and don't target anyone specifically (they apply to all equally regardless of why they were set up).

 

[nismaratwork]

Can you show me evidence that the French law is not acting out of interest of the public safety and that the sociological argument that I put forth has nothing to do with cultural preservation? All you seem to be doing is pushing things aside, without giving argument besides something that can be interpreted as "because I say so".

The anti-mask law was instated by Martin E. Trapp as a direct response to the Klu Klux Klan (some anti-mask laws pre-date the rise of the Klan, for instance the one in New York).

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2905649&postcount=203

It's one of the first things I cited, remember?

 

[Monique]

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2905649&postcount=203

It's one of the first things I cited, remember?

Whatever, I think you are an impossible person to have a discussion with.

Sorry, I was asking if the French ban is specifically against the burqa or does it also extend to all face covering?

To all face covering. Today it was announced that The Netherlands is also planning to instate a law against all face covering.

 

[nismaratwork]

Whatever, I think you are an impossible person to have a discussion with.

That's a pretty insulting statement, considering the number of discussions I've had here. BobG cited something quite similar... is he impossible as well? I keep saying I'm happy to broaden the discussion in an appropriate thread, but the bottom line here is that you keep citing public safety laws, when this is a CULTURAL law. Just because I won't have the discussion you want to make this, doesn't mean I'm impossible, it just means I won't be sidetracked here. I can appreciate why that would piss you off, but is this really the kind of thing you want to be saying as staff here?

A big problem here is that when people start to lose traction with one point of a disagreement, they try to move away from it to a new sub-topic; I'm not playing ball with that. Let's finish THIS, then we can move on to the broader issues you've raised, where I think you'll find we have far less disagreement. I'm not the one dismissing you out of hand because you keep running this in circles, in fact I continue to be responsive.

 

[JaredJames]

Whatever

A bit childish don't you think? My teenage sister says this all the time and it is one of the most pointless statements used. "I don't care what you say / what evidence you give, I know I'm right." is the gist of it. As soon as that is used I just give up because it's clear she isn't going to accept anything I say, regardless what evidence I give. Any debate there was is over.

To all face covering.

So why are we debating the burqa? If it applies to all face covering in France, then it specifically doesn't target Muslims. So what's the problem? The way this thread has gone I could have sworn the French had banned only the burqa. Just sounds like they don't want people concealing their identities. I agree with it even more in that case.