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News French Senate Approves a Ban on Burqas

  1. Sep 14, 2010 #1

    lisab

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    I think, if we all try very hard :smile:, we can discuss this issue without veering into religion.

    The French senate voted today to ban clothing that covers the face - burqas and naqabs are included in the ban.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/14/france.burqa.ban/index.html?hpt=T2


    I wonder, is there a middle ground on this issue? What might a compromise look like? Maybe a recent immigrant could be excused, with the understanding that baring her face for the first time as an adult may be too distressing.

    Most countries have some laws addressing the minimum clothing allowed, because of social norms. However, there is also a social norm in most Western countries against covering one's face. For example, in the US, it's not a good idea to walk into a convenience store, or a bank, wearing a ski mask.

    So is it acceptable for a Western country to regulate clothing to this degree?
     
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  3. Sep 14, 2010 #2

    Hepth

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    While I don't necessarily feel I have the right to identity privacy in all public areas, especially as security technologies advance with more easily implemented facial recognition, I can not see how it would deter would-be criminals or criminal activity. Those that are planning on robbing a business with a mask will do so anyway, and avoiding identity recognition by wearing a mask currently will only make you more suspicious.

    I think it should possibly (if voted on) be regulated in public properties (governmental buildings) as it would help keep track of who entered/exited. And I believe businesses are entitled to deny patrons who cover their faces as it poses a security problem. (I don't have the right to be allowed into a grocery store dressed like a storm trooper...but I SHOULD be allowed to walk down the street as one)
     
  4. Sep 14, 2010 #3

    Gokul43201

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    What is the argument for the ban?
    What damage does it produce? Until someone points me to a reasonably complete argument behind this legislation, my opinion is that it is a gross over-reach by the French Govt.


    This is interesting:
    The difference, I think, is strongly related to the attitudes of people in these countries towards having government tell them what they can do.
     
  5. Sep 14, 2010 #4
    Burqas are nothing but a total ownage, and control of a woman. Burqas are a way of openly subjugating a woman by man. The western society has come far on humans rights, and feminism. And so the rise of Islamic population, most of which is resistant to assimilation, poses a threat to the freedom which allowed them in the first place.


    pack%20o%20burqas.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2010
  6. Sep 14, 2010 #5

    loseyourname

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    Stupid policy. They're throwing out BS justifications but the reality is the French don't appreciate the influx of Muslim culture even though they invite it with their guest-worker program.
     
  7. Sep 14, 2010 #6
    I think it's more related to the fact that majority of Americans are religious, and they have a tendency to accept other religions as long it's not atheism. Europe on the other hand is more atheistic.
     
  8. Sep 14, 2010 #7
    Really? How about basic things, like a photo-ID, drivers license, passport - to name a few.

    If Muslims do not like the policy of France, they should not move there.
     
  9. Sep 14, 2010 #8

    JaredJames

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    Even when I hear people say they are happy to wear it, I wonder whether they are doing it because they feel they should due to religious / cultural pressure. I mean, if you live in a country where you are expected to wear it are you really going to rebel when the punishment for not doing so can be severe?

    I don't see a problem with banning it, all it does is hide who a person is, which may not affect most people, but the fact is you don't know who is under it (male or female). If you wish to wear it in private, fair enough, but in public I don't see why anyone should be allowed to hide themselves. In the UK most businesses won't allow you to enter with a crash helmet on so why is the burqa any different?

    EDIT: Couldn't agree more cyrus.
     
  10. Sep 14, 2010 #9

    Gokul43201

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    A much less intrusive law, requiring that face coverings be temporarily removed for the purpose of generating and verifying photo identification ought to take care of that, no?

    Ninjas too.
     
  11. Sep 14, 2010 #10
    You really think a person religious to the point of covering her face is going to submit to such a law? ...Good luck with that. As far as I'm aware, they don't even take it off in such a situation in their native country.

    Surrendering + Ninjas dont go together too well. HIyooo.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2010
  12. Sep 14, 2010 #11

    Office_Shredder

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    So... you're suggesting it will be easier to get them to submit to a law wherein the burqa is illegal all together?
     
  13. Sep 14, 2010 #12

    lisab

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    But wait a minute - if I understand properly, the religion doesn't require any particular clothing. The requirement is to be "modest", and it's interpreted by various cultures in different ways (facial coverings aren't universal in Islamic countries).

    It's a curious interpretation of "modest" to attract attention to yourself by wearing clothing so peculiar, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2010
  14. Sep 14, 2010 #13
    No, I'm suggesting not to live in France if you don't like western culture. I thought that was painfully clear.
     
  15. Sep 14, 2010 #14

    Evo

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    I wonder why you don't see Muslim women in America out in public with their faces veiled? All I've ever seen is the head scarf.
     
  16. Sep 14, 2010 #15

    BobG

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    I find it almost insulting to pretend this issue has anything to do with apparel. Burqas are being banned solely because of their association with Islam, not because a woman wearing a burqa might be mistaken for a bank robber.

    This is a question of how far a government should go in restricting practice of religion. This is France, so you're not talking about principles protected by the Constitution. In other words, it becomes a question of what actions would be right for a government to take against religions if the government weren't encumbered by the US Constitution.
     
  17. Sep 14, 2010 #16
    I saw a full out Burqa in Philadelphia over labor day weekend. I'm sure you can find plenty in Dearborn MI too. And lisab is right, it's not religious, it's cultural.
     
  18. Sep 14, 2010 #17

    Evo

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    I read in another article that it was a political move to gain favor in the growing anti-imigration sentiment in France. Not really a religious issue.
     
  19. Sep 14, 2010 #18

    BobG

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    It's also very rare in France (less than 1%?). The ban is more symbolic than practical. It's a ban that makes a statement without creating a large government expense to enforce the ban.

    Wearing a burqa is mandatory in a few theocratic states, but it's not a very popular choice for women with a choice.

    Edit: According to this USA Today article, out of around 6 million Muslims in France, about 2,000 wear burqas.

    Belgium has similar legislation. An estimate 30 to 100 women wear burqas in Belgium, but the legislator that co-authored the bill is concerned that that number could balloon to 2,000 Belgian women wearing burqas in 10 years.

    The legislation in both countries is a symbolic statement against Islam or at least a gross waste of money chasing down and solving non-existent problems.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2010
  20. Sep 14, 2010 #19

    JaredJames

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    I was under the impression the burqa was worn because only husbands should see their wives. Cultural or religious is irrelevant. Either one can create pressure to wear it.

    EDIT: The wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa) shows two passages from the quran telling women to cover up. Given how strictly people take that particular religious book I'd say it is certainly a pressure point in getting women to wear it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2010
  21. Sep 14, 2010 #20

    Evo

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    Exactly.
     
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