From a proof on directional derivatives

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving a limit related to directional derivatives of a function \( f(x,y) \) given the existence and continuity of its partial derivatives. Participants explore the implications of the total derivative and its relationship to directional derivatives, seeking a rigorous proof while addressing various definitions and concepts in calculus and linear algebra.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the limit can be proven, particularly focusing on the term \( y + hv_y \) within the function and its implications for the proof.
  • Several participants agree that as \( h \to 0 \), \( y + hv_y \) approaches \( y \), but they emphasize the need for a rigorous proof rather than intuitive reasoning.
  • There is a discussion about whether the existence of continuous partial derivatives allows for the use of the total derivative \( Df(x,y) \) in the proof, with some participants suggesting it could help clarify the relationship between directional derivatives and the gradient.
  • One participant expresses confusion about how the total derivative relates to proving the directional derivative as the dot product of the gradient and the vector \( \vec{v} \). They seek clarification on the definitions of Fréchet and Gateaux derivatives.
  • Another participant provides a definition of the total derivative and discusses its implications in terms of linear maps and their representations, linking it to the concept of directional derivatives.
  • There is a mention of the distinction between Fréchet and Gateaux derivatives, with definitions provided for both concepts.
  • One participant advocates for a coordinate-free definition of the total derivative, arguing for its clarity and generalizability.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definitions and implications of the total derivative and its relationship to directional derivatives, but there remains uncertainty about the specific proof and how to rigorously establish the limit in question. Multiple competing views on the best approach to the proof are present.

Contextual Notes

Participants express limitations in their understanding of certain concepts, such as the relationship between different types of derivatives and the application of linear maps. There is also a noted dependence on definitions that may not be universally agreed upon.

Delta2
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TL;DR
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Given that the partial derivatives of a function ##f(x,y)## exist and are continuous, how can we prove that the following limit
$$\lim_{h\to 0}\frac{f(x+hv_x,y+hv_y)-f(x,y+hv_y)}{h}=v_x\frac{\partial f}{\partial x}(x,y)$$

I can understand why the factor ##v_x## (which is viewed as a constant ) appears in front of there, my difficulty in understanding is that inside the function the argument is ##y+hv_y## if it was just y, then everything would be fine.
 
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There seems all right iny+hv_y \rightarrow y
 
anuttarasammyak said:
There seems all right iny+hv_y \rightarrow y
Yes I can see that and it makes some sort of intuitive proof but I am looking for a rigorous proof.
 
Delta2 said:
Summary:: -

Given that the partial derivatives of a function ##f(x,y)## exist and are continuous, how can we prove that the following limit
$$\lim_{h\to 0}\frac{f(x+hv_x,y+hv_y)-f(x,y+hv_y)}{h}=v_x\frac{\partial f}{\partial x}(x,y)$$

I can understand why the factor ##v_x## (which is viewed as a constant ) appears in front of there, my difficulty in understanding is that inside the function the argument is ##y+hv_y## if it was just y, then everything would be fine.
Are you allowed to use that it follows from your assumptions on existence of continuous partial derivatives that the total derivative ##Df(x,y) = \Bigl(\frac{\partial f(x,y)}{\partial x} \, \frac{\partial f(x,y)}{\partial y}\Bigr)##?

If yes, can you see how that helps?

EDIT: To be more explicit, if yes, then
$$
\begin{aligned}
\frac{f(x+hv_x,y+hv_y)-f(x,y+hv_y)}{h} &=\frac{f(x+hv_x,y+hv_y)-f(x,y)}{h} - \frac{f(x,y+hv_y) - f(x,y) }{h}\\
&\to Df(x,y)(v_x,v_y) - \frac{\partial f(x,y)}{\partial y}v_y = \frac{\partial f(x,y)}{\partial x}v_x,
\end{aligned}
$$
as ##h \to 0##.
 
Last edited:
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S.G. Janssens said:
Are you allowed to use that it follows from your assumptions on existence of continuous partial derivatives that the total derivative ##Df(x,y) = \Bigl(\frac{\partial f(x,y)}{\partial x} \, \frac{\partial f(x,y)}{\partial y}\Bigr)##?

If yes, can you see how that helps?
Sorry I can't understand how the total derivative helps here. What I am trying to prove is that the directional derivative (with respect to a vector ##\vec{v}=(v_x,v_y)##) is equal to the dot product of gradient and the vector ##\vec{v}##.
 
Delta2 said:
Sorry I can't understand how the total derivative helps here. What I am trying to prove is that the directional derivative (with respect to a vector ##\vec{v}=(v_x,v_y)##) is equal to the dot product of gradient and the vector ##\vec{v}##.
The total derivative ##Df(x,y)## of ##f : \mathbb{R}^2 \to \mathbb{R}## at the point ##(x,y)## is a linear map from ##\mathbb{R}^2## to ##\mathbb{R}##. I regard the gradient as the coordinate representation of ##Df(x,y)## with respect to the standard basis of ##\mathbb{R}^2##.

(By tradition abuse of notation (of which I am also regularly guilty, for instance in post #4), the distinction between ##Df(x,y)## and its coordinate representation is ignored, but this is not always good practice.)

If ##v## is a direction vector in ##\mathbb{R}^2## with standard coordinate representation ##(v_x,v_y)##, then application of the linear map ##Df(x,y)## to ##v## is identical to matrix-vector multiplication (in this case: the dot product) of the gradient with ##(v_x,v_y)##. (That is a fact from linear algebra, more so than from calculus.)
 
If, on the other hand, you are asking why application of the coordinate-free total derivative ##Df(x,y)## to the coordinate-free vector ##v## gives you the directional derivative of ##f## at ##(x,y)## in the direction of ##v##, then note that
$$
\|f((x,y) + hv) - f(x,y) - Df(x,y)hv\| = o(\|hv\|)
$$
by total differentiability of ##f## at ##(x,y)##. So,
$$
\lim_{h \to 0}\frac{\|f((x,y) + hv) - f(x,y) - hDf(x,y)v\|}{h} = 0
$$
as well. (This is just "Fréchet differentiability implies Gateaux differentiability".)
 
Last edited:
@S.G. Janssens I admit I am a bit lost. I haven't heard before about Frechet and Gateaux derivatives, but anyway let me ask this
What is the primary definition of the total derivative and when you say:
S.G. Janssens said:
If v is a direction vector in R2 with standard coordinate representation (vx,vy), then application of the linear map Df(x,y) to v is identical to matrix-vector multiplication (in this case: the dot product) of the gradient with (vx,vy). (That is a fact from linear algebra, more so than from calculus.)
How do we prove the above
 
Delta2 said:
I haven't heard before about Frechet and Gateaux derivatives
Fréchet = total, Gateaux = directional.
Delta2 said:
What is the primary definition of the total derivative
A function ##f : \mathbb{R}^n \to \mathbb{R}^m## is differentiable at a point ##\mathbf{x} \in \mathbb{R}^n## if there exists a linear map ##Df(\mathbf{x}) : \mathbb{R}^n\to \mathbb{R}^m## such that
$$
\|f(\mathbf{x} + \mathbf{z}) - f(\mathbf{x}) - Df(\mathbf{x})\mathbf{z}\| = o(\|\mathbf{z}\|)
$$
for ##\|\mathbf{z}\| \to 0##.
Delta2 said:
How do we prove the above
This is linear algebra: Applying a linear map to a vector is equivalent to applying the representation of that map (in some chosen basis) to the representation of that vector (in the same basis).
 
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Also, it was not my intention to make this more difficult than necessary, and I am sorry if that happened anyway, but I cannot resist the coordinate-free definition, for a variety of reasons, such as: It keeps a clean separation between linear maps and their representations, and it generalizes directly from operators on ##\mathbb{R}^n## to operators on infinite-dimensional normed linear spaces. Here "directly" means that the proofs of the standard theorems carry over almost verbatim. (As long as these proofs do not rely on the local compactness of ##\mathbb{R}^n##.)
 

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