News Gainesville Reverend Plans To Burn Qu'ran

[apeiron]

No, it isn't. It is a product of one religious group wanting to kill another.

Simple minded nonsense. It is a conflict like any other, about power, resources, money, dominance, identity. And religious fanaticism is a tool, not the reason.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,369448,00.html

 

[OmCheeto]

The Islamic communities are not in conflict with us because they're just all fundamentally evil (hint: they aren't). We are in conflict with them because they are sitting atop a very valuable resource. You think we'd care about stability in the Middle East if it weren't for all the oil there?

Just look at Darfur. Just as bad stuff, but we aren't taking over Sudan, are we?

When you mess with other peoples' business, expect that they won't like it.

Stop muddying the argument with facts. We want pure unadulterated opinion only. How else could we argue endlessly over something that, symbolically, is the childish equivalent of giving Islam the middle finger.

 

[rootX]

Your second sentence contradicts your first. Your second sentence says the effect I am seeing doesn't exist while your first offers a (nonsensical) explanation for why it exists.

They are not contradicting each other because any community (community of whites/blacks/some religion) would produce violence if it is in a conflict but that would not mean that some religion or that community is the cause of the violence.

It is despicable that people have become so desensitized to the violence that they can so easily dismiss it.

No, I am not dismissing violence but I am dismissing the Islam as one of the cause of this violence. I only made this claim:

I have met both Islamic as well Christian people. What you are saying/OP wacko is doing does not represent either.

If you believe Islam is an aggressive religion and causing terrorism, your opinion is ignorant and I would ask how much knowledge of this religion you have to make those allegations?

It isn't normal. It shouldn't be dismissed as being normal.

ad-hominem and irrelevant

 

[cronxeh]

What do you need to get an honorary doctorate in theology from unaccredited school? Would a note from god do?

 

[nismaratwork]

What do you need to get an honorary doctorate in theology from unaccredited school? Would a note from god do?

Must be running short on burning bushes and halos.

Kidding aside, clearly this guy, with his whole what... 50 or so followers?... are just angry pricks. They don't care about warnings from our military, or from others, they just want to burn some books. They have the right to do it, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be one of them. If a cartoon of Muhammad gets you killed in the street, I doubt these people are going to have much of a shelf-life.

People can believe what they want, but if you piss off the wrong Christian nut-job by say, being a doctor who performs abortions, you might get shot! Burn Qurans, and... you might get shot. The real difference is that given current USA and Muslin-Nation relations right now, burning these books is probably going to get OTHERS killed.

rootX: Um, we're in conflict with a lot of people who burn our leaders and flags and other goodies in effigy, right? I don't see us shooting people from footage of such rallies. Jesus, Buddha, Moses (lol, I love that one), that Mormon founder Smith-twit, and more are regularly depicted and widely mocked on South Park, and no one seems to be lobbing grenades through their office windows. They tried to put Muhammad on board, and the network censored it for fear of retaliation, such as with Theo Van Gogh. Get real root, there are times in history when each of the above religions would kill someone for the same mockers, but those times have passed for the most part. Islam is a little younger (Mormons aside), and frankly, is about where Christianity and Judaism were at the same time: legalistic, trying for conquest, and kinda violent. It seems to be the norm for religions that get big enough, not the exception, but right now it's Islam that's doing the heavy lifting in the "holy war" arena. I'm sure that someday it won't be, and another group will step up to the plate, but for now your argument is absurd.

 

[Gokul43201]

Do you consider isolated incidents of lone wackos to be on the same level as a group of hundreds calling for violence in this case? Or the hundreds (thousands?) of photocopy identical Muslim suicide bombers compared to the dozens (maybe) of random, different Christian wackos who've done similar things? I don't.

Every religion has at least a few wackos. Islam has a lot.

Another big problem with that comparison is that it does not factor socio-economic disparities. How is it reasonable to compare the actions of extreme Islamic groups in a third world country with those of extreme Christian groups in a first world country?

Maybe a better comparison would be to look at the actions of Christian extremism in Sub-Saharan Africa. A majority of the Christian population in Uganda, for instance, now wants to put homosexuals to death.

 

[nismaratwork]

Another big problem with that comparison is that it does not factor socio-economic disparities. How is it reasonable to compare the actions of extreme Islamic groups in a third world country with those of extreme Christian groups in a first world country?

Maybe a better comparison would be to look at the actions of Christian extremism in Sub-Saharan Africa. A majority of the Christian population in Uganda, for instance, now wants to put homosexuals to death.

Wow, and they (Xian in Uganda) do not **** around either, from propaganda to "direct action". I'd rather be gay in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan than Uganda.

 

[D H]

What do you need to get an honorary doctorate in theology from unaccredited school? Would a note from god do?

Why get an honorary doctorate? Go whole hog and get a "real" doctorate based on a "real" dissertation! This is the introduction from a thesis that won a doctorate from the Patriot Bible University:

Hello, my name is Kent Hovind. I am a creation/science evangelist. I live in Pensacola, Florida. I have been a high school science teacher since 1976. I've been very active in the creation/evolution controversy for quite some time.​

You can read all of Hovind's "dissertation" here: http://file.wikileaks.org/file/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

 

[nismaratwork]

Why get an honorary doctorate? Go whole hog and get a "real" doctorate based on a "real" dissertation! This is the introduction from a thesis that won a doctorate from the Patriot Bible University:

Hello, my name is Kent Hovind. I am a creation/science evangelist. I live in Pensacola, Florida. I have been a high school science teacher since 1976. I've been very active in the creation/evolution controversy for quite some time.​

You can read all of Hovind's "dissertation" here: http://file.wikileaks.org/file/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

Please tell me this is a funny hoax. Please. ><

 

[Gokul43201]

You can read all of Hovind's "dissertation" here: http://file.wikileaks.org/file/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

Must ... r e s i s t . . . .

 

[zomgwtf]

Why get an honorary doctorate? Go whole hog and get a "real" doctorate based on a "real" dissertation! This is the introduction from a thesis that won a doctorate from the Patriot Bible University:

Hello, my name is Kent Hovind. I am a creation/science evangelist. I live in Pensacola, Florida. I have been a high school science teacher since 1976. I've been very active in the creation/evolution controversy for quite some time.​

You can read all of Hovind's "dissertation" here: http://file.wikileaks.org/file/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

lol.

 

[russ_watters]

I'll post more when I'm not posting from a BlackBerry, but
apeiron (and anyone else who agrees with him), are you saying that the killing of this pastor by any random Muslim would be justifiable based on the principle of asymetric warfare?

 

[nismaratwork]

I'll post more when I'm not posting from a BlackBerry, but
apeiron (and anyone else who agrees with him), are you saying that the killing of this pastor by any random Muslim would be justifiable based on the principle of asymetric warfare?

I don't agree with that, but I'd still like to see him "mysteriously vanish" before he manages to incite additional violence for his protest. I've heard his viewpoint, and he's a disgusting human being, having nothing to do with this publicity stunt of his. What can I say, I'm nowhere near Muslim, but he strikes me as someone who would be improved by death.

 

[lisab]

I don't agree with that, but I'd still like to see him "mysteriously vanish" before he manages to incite additional violence for his protest. I've heard his viewpoint, and he's a disgusting human being, having nothing to do with this publicity stunt of his. What can I say, I'm nowhere near Muslim, but he strikes me as someone who would be improved by death.

I hope we can all agree on this analogy -

This pastor : Christians :: 9-11 terrorists : Muslims

 

[Galteeth]

Wow, and they (Xian in Uganda) do not **** around either, from propaganda to "direct action". I'd rather be gay in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan than Uganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

 

[Char. Limit]

I hope we can all agree on this analogy -

This pastor : Christians :: 9-11 terrorists : Muslims

I can agree with that.

 

[D H]

I hope we can all agree on this analogy -

This pastor : Christians :: 9-11 terrorists : Muslims

Count me out. Other wacko Christians, yes. This one, no. He's just exercising his 1st amendment rights. The first amendment is not there to protect the speech of people with whom you violently agree. It is there to protect the speech that is utterly disgusting and without value.

There is an immense gap between what this pastor plans to do and what radical elements of Islam have done. And yes, I have seen this guys ilk before. The Westboro Baptist Church set up shop right outside the Johnson Space Center's main gate after the Columbia disaster. Their speech was utterly disgusting, without merit, but completely protected.

 

[Char. Limit]

Count me out. Other wacko Christians, yes. This one, no. He's just exercising his 1st amendment rights. The first amendment is not there to protect the speech of people with whom you violently agree. It is there to protect the speech that is utterly disgusting and without value.

There is an immense gap between what this pastor plans to do and what radical elements of Islam have done. And yes, I have seen this guys ilk before. The Westboro Baptist Church set up shop right outside the Johnson Space Center's main gate after the Columbia disaster. Their speech was utterly disgusting, without merit, but completely protected.

You must be reading the analogy differently than I am... I thought of...

[Pastor Jones] is representative of [Christians] as [the 9-11 terrorists] are representative of [Muslims]

So, if you're willing to accept the idea that the 9-11 terrorists are representative of Muslims, and many Christians are, then you must logically accept the idea that Pastor Jones is representative of Christians.

 

[lisab]

You must be reading the analogy differently than I am... I thought of...

[Pastor Jones] is representative of [Christians] as [the 9-11 terrorists] are representative of [Muslims]

So, if you're willing to accept the idea that the 9-11 terrorists are representative of Muslims, and many Christians are, then you must logically accept the idea that Pastor Jones is representative of Christians.

That's just how I meant it, thanks Char. Limit. I wasn't making judgements on the legality of the actions.

 

[Cyrus]

The last time I checked, this was still a free country. If the man wants to burn him some books, he is free to burn all the books he can afford - and of any variety or type.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The last time I checked, this was still a free country. If the man wants to burn him some books, he is free to burn all the books he can afford - and of any variety or type.

No doubt, he is free to burn books, and we are free to criticize him as the irresponsible, misguided, and cowardly fool that he is.

What is sad is that this pock mark on the face of humanity gets so much attention.

 

[drankin]

So what's worse, burning the quran or murdering the individual that burns it? Sure, he is antagonising murderous religious zealots, but that isn't a crime. I think he should burn a bible too just to be fair, but it's not my party.

 

[cronxeh]

Well now.. he is just as important as anybody else. For that matter, howcome nobody ever questions me for CNN? I have crazy ideas too

 

[Char. Limit]

Sure, he is antagonising murderous religious zealots, but that isn't a crime.

It's not a crime, but I believe that it is a defense.

 

[apeiron]

I'll post more when I'm not posting from a BlackBerry, but
apeiron (and anyone else who agrees with him), are you saying that the killing of this pastor by any random Muslim would be justifiable based on the principle of asymetric warfare?

Why would I be saying that?

You commented on an asymmetry of religious wackos. I suggested you think deeper about the causes of such an asymmetry. Look at the geopolitics rather than blaming the religions involved.

Uneducated fundamentalist US rednecks can be just as dangerous as their equivalents in any other country. It is just that they are not being recruited for someone's army at the moment.

So I'm disturbed that you continue to make such facile arguments in what is meant to be an educated political forum.

 

[drankin]

Uneducated fundamentalist US rednecks can be just as dangerous as their equivalents in any other country.

We have our occasion lone wackos but there has NEVER been a group of "Uneducated fundamentalist US rednecks" that has hijacked a plane, caused thousands of deaths in a single terrorist act, videotaped beheadings... not even comparable, but nice try.

 

[DaveC426913]

We have our occasion lone wackos but there has NEVER been a group of "Uneducated fundamentalist US rednecks" that has hijacked a plane, caused thousands of deaths in a single terrorist act, videotaped beheadings... not even comparable, but nice try.

Really? You're going to put up a scoreboard?

OK, well how about cross-burning and lynchings?

Or do you have a threshold of 'bad enough'?

 

[drankin]

Really? You're going to put up a scoreboard?

OK, well how about cross-burning and lynchings?

Cross burning? Come on.

Lynchings? Are you kidding? When was the last lynching? Let's stick to this century.

Yes, let's keep a scoreboard, but the cross burning doesn't really crossover to anyone of my examples.

 

[DaveC426913]

When was the last lynching? Let's stick to this century.

Perhaps you should check your facts first. Or your math...

Yes, let's keep a scoreboard, but the cross burning doesn't really crossover to anyone of my examples.

So, yes then. You have a threshold, below which racist murder is acceptable, but above which, you find it intolerable.

Got it.

 

[turbo]

Remember the Oklahoma City bombing? McVeigh did not act alone. What about religious fundamentalists that terrorize providers and clients at abortion clinics and assassinate doctors? Christians have bad actors, too. This should not devolve into an exercise in relativism.