Geodesics and the Action Principle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of actions defined in the context of parametrized curves in a Riemannian manifold, specifically focusing on the actions A_L and A_l, which relate to kinetic energy and curve length, respectively. Participants explore the implications of these actions and the conditions under which critical points coincide.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Post 1 introduces the actions A_L and A_l and asks for interpretations of these actions and the condition L(γ, ẋ) = k.
  • Some participants propose that A_L represents the kinetic energy of the curve, while A_l represents the length of the curve.
  • Others argue that minimizing energy does not necessarily equate to minimizing length, citing examples like planetary orbits.
  • A later reply questions the relationship between critical curves and minimal length curves, suggesting that the context of potential energy is crucial for such comparisons.
  • One participant clarifies that their theorem regarding critical curves applies only in the absence of potential energy.
  • There is a suggestion that free particles move along geodesics, although this is presented without consensus on the implications of the previous points.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between minimizing energy and minimizing length, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing interpretations.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the assumption of zero potential energy and the specific context of the problem, which may not apply universally to all scenarios involving curves in Riemannian geometry.

AiRAVATA
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I have the following problem:

Let L(q,\dot{q})=\sum g_{ij}(q)\dot{q}_i\dot{q}_j. And l(q,\dot{q})=\sqrt{L(q,\dot{q})}. Define the spaces \mathbb{X},\, \mathbb{Y} of parametrized curves

\mathbb{X}=\{\gamma\,:\,[0,1]\rightarrow \mathbb{R}^n,\,\gamma \in C^\infty,\,\gamma(0)=q_0,\,\gamma(1)=q_1\},

\mathbb{Y}=\{\gamma\,:\,[0,1]\rightarrow \mathbb{R}^n,\,\gamma \in C^\infty,\,\gamma(0)=q_0,\,\gamma(1)=q_1,\,L(\gamma,\dot{\gamma})=k\},

(k is a constant and g\in C^\infty). Plus, let's define te actions A_L:\mathbb{X}\rightarrow\mathbb{R} and A_l:\mathbb{Y}\rightarrow\mathbb{R} in the usual way. Prove that the critical points of A_L in \mathbb{X} coincide with the ones of A_l in \mathbb{Y}. Give the geometrical interpretation of the action A_l and of the condition L(\gamma,\dot{\gamma})=k in \mathbb{Y}.I've already shown that the critical points coincide. I also know from a previous exercise that g_{ij}(q) is positive definite, that the Euler-Lagrange equations are the ones for the geodesics in that metric and that \dot{L}(q(t),\dot{q}(t))=0 if q(t) is a geodesic.

The problem is that I don't know how to interpret A_l and L(\gamma,\dot{\gamma})=k.

Is l=\left\|\dot{q}\right\|_g the norm of the velocity vector?

If so, what does it means that L(\gamma,\dot{\gamma})=k?

I little help will be much apretiated.
 
Last edited:
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I think I've got it.

The action A_L is the energy of the curve (more specifically, the kinetic energy), while the action A_l is the length of the curve. That means that a curve minimizes its energy if and only if it minimizes its length, independently of the metric (given a zero potential).

Does this makes any sense?

There are no sections on Calculus of Variations or Analytical Mechanics, so I figured to post here, but maybe this fits better in the DE section?
 
AiRAVATA said:
The action A_L is the energy of the curve (more specifically, the kinetic energy), while the action A_l is the length of the curve. That means that a curve minimizes its energy if and only if it minimizes its length, independently of the metric (given a zero potential).

I don't think that's quite right. The minimal curves for action are not the inimal length curves in general. (Think planetary orbits).

I believe this question is related to something about the curves of minimum length being the curves along which an elastic band stretched between the two points would have least energy. I think. Or was it that it was the path along which a particle moving with unit velocity would have minimum kinetic energy throughout? Actually, was that what you meant?
 
You are right, I shouldn't say minimal curves, more like critical curves. But as I stated above, my theorem applies only in zero potential, which is not the case of planetary orbits.

I've proven that a critical curve of the functional

A_L=\int_{t_0}^{t_1} L(q,\dot{q}) dt

defined as above (kinetic energy), is a critical curve of the functional

A_l=\int_{t_0}^{t_1} \sqrt{L(q,\dot{q})}dt,

which is the length of the curve parametrized by t in the metric g.

Again, it has nothing to do with elastic bands, as there is no potential energy.

In summary, free particles move in geodesics :)

(Now I am convinced that this post don't belong here as much)
 
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