Schools Getting into top tier university

[Nano-Passion]

I would like to get into a top tier university such as MIT which is my goal, but I'm also applying to other universities such as stanford, princeton, California institute of technology, etc.

My plan is to attend Rutgers University (campus in New Brunswick). I did some quick research and Rutgers university is top 26 program for physics. Right now I am at a community college and I don't really see a chance of me being accepted into a top tier university- my gpa is 3.96.

What I want to do is to achieve near 4.0 gpa with some research and participating in the physics club. I would then apply after I attain my bachelor's degree. My big question is though.. do I have a chance of getting accepted into MIT or some other big shot university such as standford/harvard/ CIoT??

 

[twofish-quant]

For MBA's, you need to find some other group.

For physics Ph.D.'s, there isn't much in the way of "tiers". If you want to do optical observational astronomy for example, University of Hawaii at Manoa is better than MIT.

You need to first figure out what you want to do.

Also getting a physics Ph.D. is tough enough. If that's what you want to do you should aim at finishing the Boston marathon rather than trying to be first.

 

[Nano-Passion]

For MBA's, you need to find some other group.

For physics Ph.D.'s, there isn't much in the way of "tiers". If you want to do optical observational astronomy for example, University of Hawaii at Manoa is better than MIT.

You need to first figure out what you want to do.

Also getting a physics Ph.D. is tough enough. If that's what you want to do you should aim at finishing the Boston marathon rather than trying to be first.

I know its pretty tough, I've pretty much seen allll the discouraging and more realistic posts around here in the forum. I also know that there are only 10 job openings every year for theoretical physics. But this is one of my passions that I want to pursue, If I see that halfway through graduate school that I am not upholding a near 4.0 gpa then I may switch to experimental or something else.

More specifically, I want to enter in the field and study of quantum physics. I would like to enter into MIT because I love it and its also #1 in quantum physics.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Nano-Passion, there are many things I object to in your message.

First, "but I'm passionate!" is not a magic incantation that gets you into graduate school. Anyone can say they are passionate. Talk is cheap. If you were truly passionate, you'd be doing the work needed to succeed, and not bellyaching in another thread that learning more vocabulary is simply too hard. What you need, to quote my fifth grade teacher is "less with the jaw, and more with the paw".

Second, MIT is not "#1 in quantum physics". Nobody is #1 in quantum physics. Quantum physics is a three-quarter century old term and has long ago been superseded by atomic physics, molecular physics, nuclear physics, particle physics, etc. And while MIT has strong programs in some of these, nobody is #1 in all of them.

Third, as twofish points out (and has been emphasized here over and over) there is no such thing as tiers for graduate schools. You can disregard what people who have gone through the process say, but that doesn't sound very smart to me.

Finally, get the idea that somehow a PhD in experimental physics is less difficult than one in theoretical physics right out of your head. It's arrogant, offensive and insulting. When you get your own PhD, maybe then you will have earned the right to look down your nose at other PhD's, but right now, they have accomplished far, far more than you have.

 

[Pyrrhus]

To further expand on twofish and Vanadium.

What is this obsession of GPA? "if you can't keep a 4.0 GPA then you will go for experimental"??

GPA is important for graduate school admission, but is not the solely factor. Also, Graduate school cares about two important factors: Research output (papers), and Survival (You been able to pass quals, pass oral defense, and pass tough graduate courses). GPA is not as important is graduate school.

 

[Geezer]

...to quote my fifth grade teacher is "less with the jaw, and more with the paw".

Great quote. I might have to steal it.

 

[twofish-quant]

GPA is important for graduate school admission, but is not the solely factor.

Also GPA is important at the low end in order to filter out people that clearly can't make it through graduate school. If you have a 2.7 GPA, you probably aren't going to be able to handle the coursework in grad school. Most graduate admissions committees care about the difference between a 3.8 and 4.0 GPA, and a 3.8 with hard classes is more impressive than a 4.0 in easy ones.

This is largely because, if you got a 2.7 GPA in any US university, then you it's clear that you seriously messed up (although this is NOT true for non-US universities), whereas who knows what a 3.8 means.

 

[twofish-quant]

First, "but I'm passionate!" is not a magic incantation that gets you into graduate school. Anyone can say they are passionate.

One rule about graduate school applications (or for that matter employment applications). Never talk about "passion." It's pointless and wastes space that you could use in talking about other things.

I have yet to meet someone that applies to physics graduate school that wasn't really interested in physics.

The real test of how passionate you are is what you do if you figure out that you have zero chance of getting into a "big name" university. If you care enough about physics to keep doing what you can even if the only place you can learn it is in some no-name back alley somewhere, that's real passion.

So I really wonder about people that want to get into big name universities, and how much passion they really have. If you had real passion, I don't think it would matter.

Also like anything else, too much passion can be a bad thing.

If you were truly passionate, you'd be doing the work needed to succeed, and not bellyaching in another thread that learning more vocabulary is simply too hard.

And you'd be doing the work even if it looks like you are doom to fail. What would you do if I told you had zero chance of going to MIT or becoming a professor? That's the zeroth order approximation.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Nano-Passion, there are many things I object to in your message.

First, "but I'm passionate!" is not a magic incantation that gets you into graduate school. Anyone can say they are passionate. Talk is cheap. If you were truly passionate, you'd be doing the work needed to succeed, and not bellyaching in another thread that learning more vocabulary is simply too hard. What you need, to quote my fifth grade teacher is "less with the jaw, and more with the paw".

Thanks for the kick in the *** sort of speak. That kind of motivated me a bit hehe.

Second, MIT is not "#1 in quantum physics". Nobody is #1 in quantum physics.

I'll keep that in mind.

Third, as twofish points out (and has been emphasized here over and over) there is no such thing as tiers for graduate schools. You can disregard what people who have gone through the process say, but that doesn't sound very smart to me.

But there is some sort of line right? I mean the job market is really competitive and employees care if you went to MIT or Rutgers Brunswick.

Finally, get the idea that somehow a PhD in experimental physics is less difficult than one in theoretical physics right out of your head. It's arrogant, offensive and insulting. When you get your own PhD, maybe then you will have earned the right to look down your nose at other PhD's, but right now, they have accomplished far, far more than you have.

I don't believe that getting a PhD in theoretical physics is harder, rathar that the competition for a job in theoretical physics is much much harder.

To further expand on twofish and Vanadium.

What is this obsession of GPA? "if you can't keep a 4.0 GPA then you will go for experimental"??

GPA is important for graduate school admission, but is not the solely factor. Also, Graduate school cares about two important factors: Research output (papers), and Survival (You been able to pass quals, pass oral defense, and pass tough graduate courses). GPA is not as important is graduate school.

I realize that its more than GPA and that research is also important. But is GPA in fact less significant in graduate school? That comes as a surprise to me if true.

Also GPA is important at the low end in order to filter out people that clearly can't make it through graduate school. If you have a 2.7 GPA, you probably aren't going to be able to handle the coursework in grad school. Most graduate admissions committees care about the difference between a 3.8 and 4.0 GPA, and a 3.8 with hard classes is more impressive than a 4.0 in easy ones.

This is largely because, if you got a 2.7 GPA in any US university, then you it's clear that you seriously messed up (although this is NOT true for non-US universities), whereas who knows what a 3.8 means.

Thank you. ^.^

One rule about graduate school applications (or for that matter employment applications). Never talk about "passion." It's pointless and wastes space that you could use in talking about other things.

I have yet to meet someone that applies to physics graduate school that wasn't really interested in physics.

The real test of how passionate you are is what you do if you figure out that you have zero chance of getting into a "big name" university. If you care enough about physics to keep doing what you can even if the only place you can learn it is in some no-name back alley somewhere, that's real passion.

So I really wonder about people that want to get into big name universities, and how much passion they really have. If you had real passion, I don't think it would matter.

Also like anything else, too much passion can be a bad thing.

And you'd be doing the work even if it looks like you are doom to fail. What would you do if I told you had zero chance of going to MIT or becoming a professor? That's the zeroth order approximation.

You speak true words, I agree with your reasoning.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Quantum physics is a three-quarter century old term and has long ago been superseded by atomic physics, molecular physics, nuclear physics, particle physics, etc. And while MIT has strong programs in some of these, nobody is #1 in all of them.

Superseded by atomic physics, molecular physics, nuclear, and particle physics?

Really? Can you elaborate on that, I was never aware of this.

 

[twofish-quant]

But there is some sort of line right? I mean the job market is really competitive and employees care if you went to MIT or Rutgers Brunswick.

1) Depends on the field, but for technical positions they really don't care if you went to MIT or Rutgers. Certain schools are better than others at marketing their students, but Rutgers is pretty decent at it.

2) Also one second you are talking about the job market. The next second you are talking about passion. The two really don't mix.

I realize that its more than GPA and that research is also important. But is GPA in fact less significant in graduate school? That comes as a surprise to me if true.

GPA's in graduate school is pretty close to irrelevant. As long as you pass, no one cares what grades you get.

 

[Pyrrhus]

GPA's in graduate school is pretty close to irrelevant. As long as you pass, no one cares what grades you get.

Very true. Graduate School is the place where the student with a 3.5 GPA is more relevant (to faculty) because of his/hers research output in comparison to the student with 4.0 GPA with almost no research output.

 

[Nano-Passion]

1) Depends on the field, but for technical positions they really don't care if you went to MIT or Rutgers. Certain schools are better than others at marketing their students, but Rutgers is pretty decent at it.

2) Also one second you are talking about the job market. The next second you are talking about passion. The two really don't mix.

GPA's in graduate school is pretty close to irrelevant. As long as you pass, no one cares what grades you get.

I've read a lot of posts here on the forum and I realize that the job market for physicists isn't a simple walk in the park. Its about supply and demand, if I don't prepare for the job market then how will I get accepted into my dream job or nonetheless keep a shelter above my head? I don't have a passion of living on the street, therefore I also have to keep the job market in mind and plan accordingly.

Very true. Graduate School is the place where the student with a 3.5 GPA is more relevant (to faculty) because of his/hers research output in comparison to the student with 4.0 GPA with almost no research output.

Thanks for your input. Though that if I am not able to land a job of my choice and I'm forced to pursue a field outside of physics then GPA does matter?

I always like to plan for worst case scenerio lol.

Besides, GPA to me is more than just competition, its my own personal goal and it is an indicator that I have mastered the material. (I know just an indicator)

 

[twofish-quant]

I've read a lot of posts here on the forum and I realize that the job market for physicists isn't a simple walk in the park. Its about supply and demand, if I don't prepare for the job market then how will I get accepted into my dream job or nonetheless keep a shelter above my head?

You won't get your dream job, but if you have "passion" it doesn't matter as much.

You have to make some decisions about what you want to do with your life. If your main concern is having a roof over your head, then physics is the wrong path. You are going to get more stuff with less effort in some other field.

Also a lot of what you have to end up doing as a person with a physics Ph.D. is to "make stuff up as you go along." Personally, I think it's cool, but most people don't.

I don't have a passion of living on the street, therefore I also have to keep the job market in mind and plan accordingly.

To first order, you will not get a job as a research professor. Plan for that.

There's only so much you can do to plan. A lot of stuff just happens.

Thanks for your input. Though that if I am not able to land a job of my choice and I'm forced to pursue a field outside of physics then GPA does matter?

No one cares what your GPA is in graduate school.

I always like to plan for worst case scenerio lol.

I don't think that you really know what worse case scenario looks like. If you want to be prepared for the real worst case scenario, keep some gold coins handy and learn to shoot a gun.

There are a lots of people that got into physics because their country fell apart.

Besides, GPA to me is more than just competition, its my own personal goal and it is an indicator that I have mastered the material. (I know just an indicator)

That's fine, but obsessing about GPA can get you in trouble. Also getting an A doesn't mean that you've mastered the material. You may be about to pass tests on the textbook, but the textbook could be either wrong or irrelevant.

Also the problem is that in order to get the perfect GPA, you have less time to learn stuff that might get you a job. If you want a roof over your head, you are going to be much more likely to get it if you study plumbing, auto repair, or air conditioning repair than if you study QFT. In college, I spent a huge amount of time learning to programming, you made my GPA non-stellar, but it meant that I could find a job without too much trouble once I got my Ph.D.

 

[Pengwuino]

You have to make some decisions about what you want to do with your life. If your main concern is having a roof over your head, then physics is the wrong path.

This is a bit harsh don't you think? To me, that's implying one would rather live out on the streets if they could do physics than have a home and not do physics. I really enjoy your more realistic advice to people who make threads such as these, but the idea that doing physics transcends even the most basic needs of a person is almost as unrealistic as some of the expectations people have that make threads such as these.

 

[flyingpig]

No one cares what your GPA is in graduate school.

There is GPA in graduate school...?

 

[Pengwuino]

There is GPA in graduate school...?

Of course. Why wouldn't there be?

Actually, what am I saying. When I was a freshman, I use to think there was no homework in grad school, just lectures . Oh that'll be the day

 

[DR13]

GPA's in graduate school is pretty close to irrelevant. As long as you pass, no one cares what grades you get.

Not to derail anything, but I have a quick question. Is this true for only PhD studies or is it true for Masters studies as well?

 

[Nano-Passion]

You won't get your dream job, but if you have "passion" it doesn't matter as much.

You have to make some decisions about what you want to do with your life. If your main concern is having a roof over your head, then physics is the wrong path. You are going to get more stuff with less effort in some other field.

Also a lot of what you have to end up doing as a person with a physics Ph.D. is to "make stuff up as you go along." Personally, I think it's cool, but most people don't.

To first order, you will not get a job as a research professor. Plan for that.

What I mean is having a plan for getting to where you want to go, but also to know that there is a good probability that you won't enter and to also plan for other alternatives when you don't meet your goal.

There's only so much you can do to plan. A lot of stuff just happens.

I don't believe in a world where you are simply a pollen in the wind, in today's society you control your own life and future to a much greater extent, you are the driver of your own car and not the passenger. Your control over your future is much greater than how it was in the medieval ages where it usually meant if you were born into a farm you also lived your life to be a peasant.

I know some things can get out of your control. But if you plan and have a detailed map of where all the sinkholes are, that is where things can get out of control and you end up jobless, then you can prepare to take action to go around the sinkhole. You can prevent letting things "just happen".

No one cares what your GPA is in graduate school.

Thanks, I'm still having a hard time chewing this down. Grades is everything I've been hearing about since I was a child about school.
I don't think that you really know what worse case scenario looks like. If you want to be prepared for the real worst case scenario, keep some gold coins handy and learn to shoot a gun.

There are a lots of people that got into physics because their country fell apart.

Wow, true.



That's fine, but obsessing about GPA can get you in trouble. Also getting an A doesn't mean that you've mastered the material. You may be about to pass tests on the textbook, but the textbook could be either wrong or irrelevant.


Also the problem is that in order to get the perfect GPA, you have less time to learn stuff that might get you a job. If you want a roof over your head, you are going to be much more likely to get it if you study plumbing, auto repair, or air conditioning repair than if you study QFT. In college, I spent a huge amount of time learning to programming, you made my GPA non-stellar, but it meant that I could find a job without too much trouble once I got my Ph.D.

Hmm, I think there are other options out there if you don't find your dream job. What I plan to do is prepare for my future but also have back up plans of my choice.

I believe its the journey there that matters, if I don't achieve my goal then I still had a great time walking down the road.

My comments in bold.^

 

[Nano-Passion]

Can someone answer my original question though? It subliminally got shot down the drain.

What are my chances to enter a university such as MIT with a near 4.0 average and some research under my belt from a bachelors in Rutgers University?

Of course. Why wouldn't there be?

Actually, what am I saying. When I was a freshman, I use to think there was no homework in grad school, just lectures . Oh that'll be the day

lmao.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Can someone answer my original question though? It subliminally got shot down the drain.

What are my chances to enter a university such as MIT with a near 4.0 average and some research under my belt from a bachelors in Rutgers University?
lmao.

I think you should apply to MIT (i.e. find out), and any other school you want to apply to. AS LONG as you apply to other schools as well. You don't want to put all your cards on an MIT admission.

 

[Nano-Passion]

I think you should apply to MIT (i.e. find out), and any other school you want to apply to. AS LONG as you apply to other schools as well. You don't want to put all your cards on an MIT admission.

Thanks, that what I'm doing when I attain my bachelor's degree... but the suspension is killing me haha. I need to have some sort of idea.

This one person the other day had a 4.0gpa and 2400GRE score I think and didn't get accepted into MIT (though he didn't have research experience)

But I hear many other stories though.

Also one more thing to add, I'm also going to apply to many other schools. =]

 

[twofish-quant]

What are my chances to enter a university such as MIT with a near 4.0 average and some research under my belt from a bachelors in Rutgers University?

Impossible to tell.

 

[twofish-quant]

Not to derail anything, but I have a quick question. Is this true for only PhD studies or is it true for Masters studies as well?

In a typical program, you take courses for the first two years, you get graded in those courses, and you can compute a GPA from those grades.

However, no one cares about that number. What matters is your dissertation.

 

[twofish-quant]

Thanks, that what I'm doing when I attain my bachelor's degree... but the suspension is killing me haha. I need to have some sort of idea.

You need to get used to uncertainty and randomness.

Assume that you won't get into MIT, and then figure out what you will do, if that is the situation. If you have a backup plan for what to do if you don't get into MIT (and you probably won't) then it won't matter as much if you get in or not.

Two things that you should know...

1) MIT physics graduate school has a matter of policy will not take MIT undergraduates. Your chances of getting into MIT physics graduate school if you are an MIT undergraduate is basically nil. That's why Feymann ended up at Princeton.

2) If you have your heart set on getting into MIT physics grad school, the biggest determining factor is not your GPA, research, or anything else, but the "division" that you apply to. MIT allocates graduate school positions into the divisions, and the applicant/places available for each division is different.

 

[twofish-quant]

Also I think the most important reason for going to MIT is that you stop worshiping MIT. MIT is a really, really weird culture, and one of the things that you learn at MIT is to hate MIT (google for IHTFP).

You need to learn to hate MIT, because if you "love" and "worship" MIT, you aren't pushing it or yourself to be better. By contrast if you "hate" MIT, you are constantly thinking of ways to make it better. Also, MIT people tend to be cynical people. One thing that I learned at MIT is don't believe MIT propaganda. This is an important lesson, because if you are a part of the organization, and you start believing your own marketing, you are doomed.

Also if you want to get involved in MIT, you might consider joining the MIT Enterprise Forum. http://www.mitef-nyc.org/ One reason I post as much as I do is that MIT does a good job at making the "formal curriculum" available to everyone (see OCW), but I think it's important to make the "informal curriculum" also visible.

Something that is odd about this conversation is that I think that Rutgers does some things better than MIT does. Rutgers is better at teaching mathematical finance than MIT for some curious reasons.

 

[Pengwuino]

Thanks, that what I'm doing when I attain my bachelor's degree... but the suspension is killing me haha. I need to have some sort of idea.

This one person the other day had a 4.0gpa and 2400GRE score I think and didn't get accepted into MIT (though he didn't have research experience)

There are SO many different influencing factors when it comes to admission. This isn't undergraduate admissions where the universities don't even care what major you're getting in to. An undergraduate admissions committee, once they've let you in, have pretty much lost control over you and in a sense, wash their hands of you and simply expect you to give them lots and lots of money with tuition. Graduate school is the exact opposite. They're making a big investment in you, you're going to be around for years and years and they need to support you and find an adviser for you to work with and hope you pan out and make a name for the department.

With that in mind, no one can tell you how to get into MIT/Harvard/Caltech/Whatever, but people can surely tell you how to get rejected even with a perfect GPA and PGRE score.

 

[twofish-quant]

Graduate school is the exact opposite. They're making a big investment in you, you're going to be around for years and years and they need to support you and find an adviser for you to work with and hope you pan out and make a name for the department.

It's an even exchange, since while you are in physics graduate school you work as an academic serf teaching undergraduates and doing research grunt work which is essential for the department to run.

 

[twofish-quant]

There are SO many different influencing factors when it comes to admission.

Including dumb luck.

 

[flyingpig]

Of course. Why wouldn't there be?

Actually, what am I saying. When I was a freshman, I use to think there was no homework in grad school, just lectures . Oh that'll be the day

Lol I knew there was going to be work, tons of work in fact, but I didn't expect we still get "grade letters". I thought it was your professor giving you a pass or fail.

 

[twofish-quant]

Lol I knew there was going to be work, tons of work in fact, but I didn't expect we still get "grade letters". I thought it was your professor giving you a pass or fail.

It basically is.

A = high pass
B = low pass
C = you really messed up.

 

[Nano-Passion]

In a typical program, you take courses for the first two years, you get graded in those courses, and you can compute a GPA from those grades.

However, no one cares about that number. What matters is your dissertation.

Mind = blown. Thanks, I personally think that's pretty cool. I've always grown up with the idea that grades matter-- a lot.

You need to get used to uncertainty and randomness.

Assume that you won't get into MIT, and then figure out what you will do, if that is the situation. If you have a backup plan for what to do if you don't get into MIT (and you probably won't) then it won't matter as much if you get in or not.

Two things that you should know...

1) MIT physics graduate school has a matter of policy will not take MIT undergraduates. Your chances of getting into MIT physics graduate school if you are an MIT undergraduate is basically nil. That's why Feymann ended up at Princeton.

2) If you have your heart set on getting into MIT physics grad school, the biggest determining factor is not your GPA, research, or anything else, but the "division" that you apply to. MIT allocates graduate school positions into the divisions, and the applicant/places available for each division is different.

For 1) -- Wow, that is an interesting fact to know.
For 2) - Divisions? I've never really heard of this, what divisions are there?

Thank you so much for your time btw.

Also I think the most important reason for going to MIT is that you stop worshiping MIT. MIT is a really, really weird culture, and one of the things that you learn at MIT is to hate MIT (google for IHTFP).

You need to learn to hate MIT, because if you "love" and "worship" MIT, you aren't pushing it or yourself to be better. By contrast if you "hate" MIT, you are constantly thinking of ways to make it better. Also, MIT people tend to be cynical people. One thing that I learned at MIT is don't believe MIT propaganda. This is an important lesson, because if you are a part of the organization, and you start believing your own marketing, you are doomed.

Also if you want to get involved in MIT, you might consider joining the MIT Enterprise Forum. http://www.mitef-nyc.org/ One reason I post as much as I do is that MIT does a good job at making the "formal curriculum" available to everyone (see OCW), but I think it's important to make the "informal curriculum" also visible.

Something that is odd about this conversation is that I think that Rutgers does some things better than MIT does. Rutgers is better at teaching mathematical finance than MIT for some curious reasons.

Thank you for enlightening me on this, I've read your previous posts of this and found them to be very interesting.

Personally I don't like to be a mindless sheep in a sheep herd (following society and pre-set roles/values/ideas/paradigms without being aware) so I thank you for this.

What excites me about MIT though is that I will be surrounded by other other people that I hope care about school and are passionate about math and physics. I have a crappy community in my college and I am excited to be around other smart and driven people.

There are SO many different influencing factors when it comes to admission. This isn't undergraduate admissions where the universities don't even care what major you're getting in to. An undergraduate admissions committee, once they've let you in, have pretty much lost control over you and in a sense, wash their hands of you and simply expect you to give them lots and lots of money with tuition. Graduate school is the exact opposite. They're making a big investment in you, you're going to be around for years and years and they need to support you and find an adviser for you to work with and hope you pan out and make a name for the department.

With that in mind, no one can tell you how to get into MIT/Harvard/Caltech/Whatever, but people can surely tell you how to get rejected even with a perfect GPA and PGRE score.

Wow, I never looked at that way. Thank you so much. Graduate school is awesomee =D

It basically is.

A = high pass
B = low pass
C = you really messed up.

I hope this isn't a silly question because I am not sure if you are speaking figuratively. There are A-, B- and the such right?