Gibbs and Helmholtz equations for thermodynamic processes

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Gibbs and Helmholtz equations in the context of various thermodynamic processes, including adiabatic, isothermic, constant volume, and constant pressure scenarios. Participants explore how these equations apply to different types of processes and the implications of chemical reactions on the equations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about the applicability of the equations ΔG=ΔH-TΔS and ΔA=ΔU-TΔS to four specific thermodynamic processes.
  • Another participant introduces the differential forms of the Gibbs and Helmholtz energies, suggesting that appropriate terms should be set to zero based on the process type.
  • A question is raised regarding whether the processes include chemical reactions, indicating a potential complication in applying the equations.
  • One participant provides a specific example involving a PV graph and asks how to find ΔG and ΔA for various transitions on the graph.
  • In response to the example, another participant outlines derivations for ΔG and ΔA, emphasizing the need to verify mathematical details.
  • Another participant discusses the isochoric cooling process, detailing the relationships between internal energy, work, and heat.
  • A participant reiterates the concern about the relevance of the Gibbs and Helmholtz equations in processes without chemical reactions, pointing out that the equations may not be applicable in such cases.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of the Gibbs and Helmholtz equations across the specified processes, and there is no consensus on whether these equations are valid in scenarios without chemical reactions.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve assumptions about reversibility and the nature of the processes, as well as the dependence on specific conditions such as temperature and pressure. The mathematical derivations presented may contain unresolved steps or require further verification.

tag16
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For a thermodynamic process, what equations would be used to find the change in Gibbs and Helmholtz free energy when:
a.)The process is adiabatic
b.)The process is isothermic
c.)The process is at constant volume
d.)The process is at constant pressure

I know ΔG=ΔH-TΔS and ΔA=ΔU-TΔS but do these equations apply to all four processes?
 
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I think you need to get into the thermodynamic partial derivative definition of these processes, i.e.

Gibbs Energy:
dG = -SdT + VdP
Helmholtz Energy:
dA = - SdT - PdV

Now you set the appropriate terms to zero.

i.e.
adiabatic: is it a reversible process?
isothermic: dT=0
isobaric (const pressure): dP=0
const vol: dV=0
 
Does the process include chemical reactions?
 
Basically, I'm asking if you were given a PV graph similar to this:

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/images/wiki/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Stirling_Cycle.png/200px-Stirling_Cycle.png


How would you find ΔG and ΔA for the processes 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4 and 4 to 1?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
For 1 to 2:
ΔG = ΔH - TΔS
ΔA = ΔU - TΔS

ΔU=NCvΔT=0
ΔH=NCpΔT=0

so ΔA = ΔG=-TΔS; you know T but need to find ΔS. There are two derivations; either will work for you. I'm going fast so may have mixed up negative signs & numerators/denominators, you need to double check the math when you do it yourself to make sure nothing is wrong.

Derivation 1
ΔU = Q + W = 0 b/c ΔU = 0.
Q = -W
dW = -PdV
dW= -(NRT/V)dV (plugged in ideal gas law)
W = -NRTln(V2/V1)
so Q = NRTln(V2/V1)
ΔS = Q/T = -NRln(V2/V1)Derivation 2 (my preference)
Use Maxwell's relations.
(dS/dV) at const T = (dP/dT) at const V. Plug in ideal gas law.
So dS/dV = NR/V; integrate to get ΔS = NR ln (V2/V1).
 
Last edited:
For 2 to 3:
Isochoric Cooling - Const Volume.

ΔU = NCvΔT = Q + W.
W = PΔV so W = 0.

ΔU = Q = NCvΔT.
ΔH=ΔU+Δ(PV)=ΔU+VΔP
 
Last edited:
tag16 said:
I know ΔG=ΔH-TΔS and ΔA=ΔU-TΔS but do these equations apply to all four processes?

I was asking whether chemical reactions are taking place (which, as I learned from your answer, is not the case) because the formulas above refer to the change of G or A due to a chemical reaction taking place at constant T and p. The "Delta" is not simply an abbreviation for a difference here but
\Delta X=\sum_i \nu_i \partial X/\partial n_i |_{T, P} which the nu_i being the stochiometric coefficients of the reaction taking place. So this formula is little helpful when you consider a process which does not involve chemical reactions.
 

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