News GITMO detainees and Obama's promise

  • Thread starter Thread starter SW VandeCarr
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary
Obama's 2008 promise to close the Guantanamo Bay detention facility remains unfulfilled, with 176 detainees still held as of August 2010. The U.S. government has struggled to find alternative locations for these detainees, facing both domestic opposition and international reluctance to accept them. Legal complexities arise as many detainees have not been formally charged, leading to concerns about indefinite detention without trial. The discussion highlights the tension between national security, legal obligations, and public sentiment regarding the detainees' future. Ultimately, the consensus leans towards maintaining their detention at Guantanamo due to the risks associated with their release or transfer.
  • #91
SW VandeCarr said:
I was describing terrorism as a tactic in the context of the deliberate use of deadly force against innocent civilians in a non-combat situation.

What is so special about deadly force in the instigation of fear-based power? Deadly force has its own criminal status. What's special about the "terror" in "terrorism" is that fear is the basis for power, regardless of whether force, deadly force, or just a media hoax is used. As I pointed out before, if the anthrax letters or even the 9-11 attacks themselves had been a hoax, they would have had the same effect on the general public via the media. If the issue with terrorism was deadly force, you would address that instead of the TERROR-ism, wouldn't you?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #92
SW VandeCarr said:
If you insist that a formal declaration of war is necessary to "legalize" killing, I would agree with you.

I didn't, I was stating it as a sufficient condition.

SW VandeCarr said:
Foreign fighters were presumed to be al-Qaida operatives or supporters. As such, they can be suspected of criminal activities as associates of al-Qaida. Since they were foreigners in Afghanistan, they could not argue they were defending their homeland when they fired at US troops. They were simply criminal elements trying to avoid capture. However, since we are not able to charge them all and expect a conviction under US law, it may be useful hold them as POWs so we are not forced to release them by court order. I've said this tactic may not be acceptable to US courts just as it doesn't appear to be acceptable to you.

But 'defending one's homeland' isn't at issue here; being a POW is. Unless you're recommending that Afghan fighters be POWs and al-Qaida not be? But even then, distinguishing them in corner cases will be difficult.
 
  • #93
CRGreathouse said:
'defending one's homeland' isn't at issue here; being a POW is. Unless you're recommending that Afghan fighters be POWs and al-Qaida not be? But even then, distinguishing them in corner cases will be difficult.

Yes, at least a first cut. I guess I didn't make that clear. As I've said, reclassification is a tactic to buy time. You understand that the US doesn't seem to have enough evidence to win a conviction for all but a few of the detainees. If the they are not charged, the USSC will likely order them released. If they are are charged, the Sixth Amendment clock starts running. I'm repeating myself here, but this a long and noisy thread (see post 86).

I've asked others, and I'm asking you: What's your solution?
 
  • #94
SW VandeCarr said:
Yes, at least a first cut. I guess I didn't make that clear. As I've said, reclassification is a tactic to buy time. You understand that the US doesn't seem to have enough evidence to win a conviction for all but a few of the detainees. If the they are not charged, the USSC will likely order them released. If they are are charged, the Sixth Amendment clock starts running. I'm repeating myself here, but this a long thread (see post 86).

I've asked others, and I'm asking you: What's your solution?

Do you see how you're framing this issue here? You talk about "winning" convictions and "clocks ticking" to release. When you talk in such terms, it distracts from what should be the real discussion, which is what these suspects have in fact been suspected for, and whether they are guilty of those activities. Sometimes hostages are taken for no other purpose than to make demands. If this is one of those cases, someone should claim that. Ultimately, people should be getting down to the basics of whether this is a tactical or judicial issue. Remember that releasing people without a formal procedure leaves the matter of their guilt open to speculation whereas due process allows them to be declared not-guilty. Still, there is another interest at work, which is that if suspects are found not-guilty, it makes the detaining authorities look bad, which may be enough pressure to ensure that guilt is attributed. Part of the legal process is supposed to neutralize against such interests, but is such neutrality ever really possible to ensure?
 
  • #95
Office_Shredder said:
Actually that's kind of exactly what you said.

Obviously these people wouldn't be held if there wasn't some belief that they could be dangerous, but that doesn't mean there's convincing evidence they are terrorists (if there was, we could charge them and throw them in jail!).

brainstorm, the default setup is that people need a visa to enter other countries. The fact that some countries then make deals to avoid the hassle of a visa is not an act of violence against civilians, and I find it hard to believe you really think it is

You gave me a specific hypothetical in which a court is demanding release, but the president KNOWS that someone is dangerous. As far as I know, this doesn't exist. I answered your hypothetical, but that doesn't mean I believe that the GITMO detainees are dangerous as a group.

Brainstorm: See my above statement... Beyond that, I don't believe what I'm proposing is ethical, just effective. I also don't believe that the the remaining detainees are ticking time-bombs of terror... ooh, alliteration. I think that most can be safely repatriated or tried. I was given a specific hypothetical, that's all.
 
  • #96
I don't know what the solution is. Despite my military service, and knowing what some of these folks have done, including what some of them have done after being released, I'm inclined to try them in a war crimes tribunal, not through normal civil or criminal proceedings.

The thing of it is, waging war is not against international law, and without having actually comitted crimes against the laws of war, such as "deliberate instigation of aggressive wars, extermination of racial and religious groups, murder and mistreatment of prisoners of war, and the muder, mistreatment, and deportation of hundreds of thousands of inhabitants of countries occupied by..."

Oh, wait - that was World War II, and the accusations levies by the prosecutors on October 18, 1945, at the Nuremberg Trials.

Reading the above, however, it's clear that much of the acitivities which landed these "detainees" in Gitmo is most certainly along the lines of the prosecution during the Nuremburg Trials.

Try 'em as war criminals. You can't just hold them indefinately, but whatever we do, folks, do NOT just let the heinous people go!

Ok, fine - let's let 'em go. While we're at it, let's empty the nearest max security prisons in and around your hometowns.

Seriously, and please - I ask you to reconsider. These are not "nice but unfortunate people" as some folks in the media would have you believe. Few of them acted in ways better than anyone on trial following WWII, and many have committed atrocities which have been far worse (the ordering of beheadings and suicide bombings of civilians come to mind).

"Civilization" has been around for several thousand years. If we're going to continue to have a civilized society, we must, absolutely, hold everyone accountable to certain broadly-acceptable standards of behavior. Nearly all people would agree the deliberate killing of innocent civilians is an atrocity which should never go unpunished (it's called murder, in case you're not familier with the term), yet the quagmire is that we targeted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki" as a way of ending the war in the Pacific with the least loss of life on both sides. Most people forget the psychological importance of the targets, as well as the herculenean task of invading the Japanese homeland. It was either use the bombs or suffer further losses of millions on each side before the Japanese would surrender. It was a choice of the lesser of two evils.

Terrorists don't choose between a lesser of evils, nor do they bother with more traditional means of electing and/or participating in governments or free speech as a way of improving their society. Instead, they resort to murder, mayhem, sensationalism, all means of violently forced coersian, and often on non-combatants at that, in order to achieve their largely religious or ideological goals.

How would you view a local military with oversight of a small colony who gathers about a hundred members of that colony in the church, then chains the doors and orders it burned?

How would you view some guy who decides to, plans, and succeeds in blowing up a major Oklahoma office building, killing 168 innocent men, women, and children, and injuring 450 others?

I'm sorry for this face of terrorism, which those of us here in America know quite well. The first is from a scene in the movie, The Patriot. The second is not a scene many of us would like to remember. I need not mention the twin towers except as in passing.

Make no mistake. This is the face of terrorism. Their goal is to accomplish this mayhem in order to draw attention to their cause while manipulating you to "feel their plight."

Don't. Please, do not believe in their ploy.

They are there in Gitmo for a reason, and that reason is that they have violated the laws of war, some barely, some massively.

I was never privvy to any details on any of the inmates at Gitmo. I do suspect, however, that some were detained and sent there not because they had either committed or ordered any atrocities themselves, but because they were knowledgeable of those who had. You may feel a serious empathy for those folks. In a way, I do too, except for one thing: Accessory after the fact. Here in the U.S., as well as in nearly all of the leading 100 countries in our world, it's a crime, as it helps enable the criminals to continue to get away with criminal activity.

In the case of those at Gitmo, if those who are knowledgeable of those who had committed atrocities are choosing to remain silent, then they are accessories after the fact to terrorism. They are choosing to support terrorism, rather than choosing to support the rule of law in our world.

I don't know what happens to those whom were caught up in the events but who readily cooperated with international authorities after they were caught. But I do think this is really where the focus needs to be. No, we don't need the particulars! But we do need to know that such folks, if in fact they did not willingly participate in terrorism, that they did in fact willingly participate in helping our civilized society to rid ourselves of terrorism.

If I'm not mistaken, of the two of the individuals associated with turning evidence against McVeigh, one was given immunity for their cooperation and the other was released into the witness protection program.

Good for them!

So why am I focusing on the Murrah bombing? Simple. My Mom was from Oklahoma. Fortunately, she lived. Unfortunately, a couple of her friends did not. I myself lost two friends in the 911 attacks, and have one more in its aftermath.

I absolutely cannot begin to fathom the utter loss of life during WWII, Kmer Rouge, Ghana, Rwuanda, Yugoslavia, or Darfu.

I do ask you, however, to never forget that it has several names, depending on both the reason as to why its done, as well as its intended outcome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism" is another.

So, back to the Iraq/Afghan wars and their "detainees"? Still think they should be released?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #97
SW VandeCarr said:
You understand that the US doesn't seem to have enough evidence to win a conviction for all but a few of the detainees.

That doesn't strike me as a problem: they should try them and release them if there's not enough evidence. I assume there's some country that would take them.
 
  • #98
CRGreathouse said:
That doesn't strike me as a problem: they should try them and release them if there's not enough evidence. I assume there's some country that would take them.
There's a good chance they would remain here, under order of the court. If they are not convicted, the courts might well take a dim view of the government acting to deport someone found innocent, and not a POW, that the government brought here in the first place, which brings us back to another reason for POW status.
 
  • #99
mheslep said:
There's a good chance they would remain here, under order of the court. If they are not convicted, the courts might well take a dim view of the government acting to deport someone found innocent, and not a POW, that the government brought here in the first place, which brings us back to another reason for POW status.

That's not within the purview of the courts; these people are not American citizens, and are therefore subject to deportation. The issue is that we have to find countries willing to take them, and many are not.
 
  • #100
nismaratwork said:
That's not within the purview of the courts; these people are not American citizens, and are therefore subject to deportation. The issue is that we have to find countries willing to take them, and many are not.
If the courts find that people arrested and detained are subject to constitutional rights and protections, it may we be illegal to export people for punishment. If it is illegal to detain someone without trial but by deporting them they can be held somewhere else indefinitely without trial, that would seem to be a loop hole in constitutional protection, no? Oh wait, GITMO is that "somewhere else" that escapes constitutional obligations. Does the constitution regulate deportation? If not, which laws do?
 
  • #101
brainstorm said:
If the courts find that people arrested and detained are subject to constitutional rights and protections, it may we be illegal to export people for punishment.
nismaratwork did not suggest they should be exported for punishment. And someone captured in a war is most certainly not subject to constitutional rights and protections.
 
  • #102
russ_watters said:
nismaratwork did not suggest they should be exported for punishment. And someone captured in a war is most certainly not subject to constitutional rights and protections.

The US Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that the detainees cannot be held indefinitely without charges and that detainees have a right to have their cases heard in civilian courts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/12/supremecourt/main4175226.shtml
 
Last edited:
  • #103
SW VandeCarr said:
The US Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that the detainees cannot be held indefinitely without charges and that detainees have a right to have their cases heard in civilian courts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/12/supremecourt/main4175226.shtml

What the court says doesn't really matter because the WH can simply ignore the decision made by the judiciary, just like Jackson did.
 
  • #104
jwxie said:
What the court says doesn't really matter because the WH can simply ignore the decision made by the judiciary, just like Jackson did.

See my post 61 (page 4).

 
Last edited:
  • #105
Yes I just read the #61. Nixon was a different story, wasn't he? The Senates is right and the Supreme Court is right about the decision. The scandal brought resentment, and the public demanded investigation. So the Senates took the action, and Nixon resigned.

The detainees issue is not a scandal. It was a legacy problem left by the Bush administration, and proposals have been rejected by many American citizens.

The WH has the final says here. Note that politicians don't give a damn until some serious reactions slapped their faces. That was the case with Nixon.
 
  • #106
SW VandeCarr said:
The US Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that the detainees cannot be held indefinitely without charges and that detainees have a right to have their cases heard in civilian courts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/12/supremecourt/main4175226.shtml
While I disagree strongly with the ruling, it is moot anyway - it was ruled two years ago, and it hasn't happened yet, even with a new Democratic President!

Perhaps even Obama realizes that the USSC's decision is at odds with historical precedent on how fighters captured during war should/must be treated. The idea that they should have a voice in the courts is unworkable and absurd. This is lawyers thinking lawyers are the solution to all problems. Or maybe he agrees with it in principle (hence the campaign promise), but now that he's in office he has found that the position is unworkable.
 
  • #107
In reading-up on the ruling, it looks like it dealt primarily with the minutae of the status of 'Gitmo as a territory or leased property and the applicability of US laws there and ignored the issue of the status of the detainees themselves. From Scalia's dissent:
According to Justice Scalia, the Court's majority's "analysis produces a crazy result: Whereas those convicted and sentenced to death for war crimes are without judicial remedy, all enemy combatants detained during a war, at least insofar as they are confined in an area away from the battlefield over which the United States exercises 'absolute and indefinite' control, may seek a writ of habeas corpus in federal court."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boumediene_v._Bush

We kept POWs in the US during WWII - were any of them granted a writ of habeas corpus?
 
  • #108
I think they deserve their day in court. It's not obvious to me that this needs to be in civilian courts, given the amount of war-related confidential information that will surely come up. But as that's the Supreme Court's ruling, I think that's the way it needs to be done. We don't need another Worcester v. Georgia...
 
  • #109
CRGreathouse said:
I think they deserve their day in court.
Why? Why does the concept of a "day in court" even apply?
 
  • #110
russ_watters said:
Why? Why does the concept of a "day in court" even apply?

Why not? We need some way to determine if they're guilty of whatever we charge them with, and court is the way to do that. Usually I would expect that to be a military tribunal, but a civilian court may be more appropriate, and regardless that's what the SCOTUS ruled.

I'm not sure if you're arguing that they shouldn't be tried (in which case I disagree), that they should be tried in a tribunal rather than a civilian court (in which case I have no major disagreement, just a general respect for the SC), or something else.
 
  • #111
russ_watters said:
nismaratwork did not suggest they should be exported for punishment. And someone captured in a war is most certainly not subject to constitutional rights and protections.

Thanks, I didn't mean ER, just standard deportation, or the classic, "You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here." As you say, I don't know of any law or statute that would stop the deportation of enemy combatants who have never been on US soil to begin with.
 
  • #112
CRGreathouse said:
Why not? We need some way to determine if they're guilty of whatever we charge them with, and court is the way to do that. Usually I would expect that to be a military tribunal, but a civilian court may be more appropriate, and regardless that's what the SCOTUS ruled.

I'm not sure if you're arguing that they shouldn't be tried (in which case I disagree), that they should be tried in a tribunal rather than a civilian court (in which case I have no major disagreement, just a general respect for the SC), or something else.

I don't see how a day in court squares with acts of war. If they committed war crimes, then try them, if they are enemy combatants then there is no NEED for a trial. If they are something else, then as has been the case it's all about making up a line of BS as it goes along. I disagree with the last.
 
  • #113
nismaratwork said:
I don't see how a day in court squares with acts of war. If they committed war crimes, then try them, if they are enemy combatants then there is no NEED for a trial. If they are something else, then as has been the case it's all about making up a line of BS as it goes along. I disagree with the last.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about the context. I was talking about those who are criminals, but not war criminals.
 
  • #114
russ_watters said:
nismaratwork did not suggest they should be exported for punishment. And someone captured in a war is most certainly not subject to constitutional rights and protections.

I don't understand. Wasn't the whole purpose of the declaration of independence and the constitution to validate individuals who stand up to their governments the way that the colonists did vis a vis the British government? Isn't the whole point to say, "if you stand up to a government that you believe is unjust, you have these INALIENABLE rights and freedoms?
 
  • #115
brainstorm said:
I don't understand. Wasn't the whole purpose of the declaration of independence and the constitution to validate individuals who stand up to their governments the way that the colonists did vis a vis the British government? Isn't the whole point to say, "if you stand up to a government that you believe is unjust, you have these INALIENABLE rights and freedoms?

The DoI is one thing, but it's the Constitution and current jurisprudence, statutes, and precedents which comprises law. A POW is not a citizen, or even a resident entitled to those protections you refer to. They are enemies combatants until the cessation of hostilities, period, and have only the rights granted by the Geneva Conventions.
 
  • #116
brainstorm said:
I don't understand. Wasn't the whole purpose of the declaration of independence and the constitution to validate individuals who stand up to their governments the way that the colonists did vis a vis the British government? Isn't the whole point to say, "if you stand up to a government that you believe is unjust, you have these INALIENABLE rights and freedoms?
Appears you've ignored the last part of Russ's response there:
RussW said:
And someone captured in a war is most certainly not subject to constitutional rights and protections.
George Washington didn't grant habeas and trials to British uniformed prisoners. I'm of a mind that the GITMO detainees should be treated either as POWs or criminals with a right to trial, and the government needs to pick one. That complication aside, I don't default to everyone picked up on a battlefield is entitled to a trial.

Edit: I see nismaratwork beat me to it.
 
  • #117
mheslep said:
George Washington didn't grant habeas and trials to British uniformed prisoners.
Why would the colonists demand certain inalienable rights from their oppressors but fail to recognize the same rights for those they oppress, including those British prisoners? I'm seriously wondering about the logic of this. Is it that the colonists did not declare war but merely independence and therefore when British soldiers committed war against them, they renounced rights they could have claimed had they remained peaceful and resisted British military authority? Is the same true for these detainees? If they had resisted military authority seeking war against the US, would they have had the right to claim constitutional rights?
 
Last edited:
  • #118
brainstorm said:
Why would the colonists demand certain inalienable rights from their oppressors but fail to recognize the same rights for those they oppress, including those British prisoners? I'm seriously wondering about the logic of this. ...
First, using the term 'oppress' regarding an act of self-defense which resulted in captured soldiers who were attacking the colonies is to abuse the term. More generally, there's a history to working out the logic of inalienable rights as they dealt with war, criminals, the insane, juveniles and so on. I'm fairly sure Locke covered it in 2nd Treatise..., which is principle origin of Jefferson's concept.
 
Last edited:
  • #119
mheslep said:
I'm of a mind that the GITMO detainees should be treated either as POWs or criminals with a right to trial, and the government needs to pick one. That complication aside, I don't default to everyone picked up on a battlefield is entitled to a trial.

I think we're in essential agreement here. I agree with your above statements, with the additional caveat that I think that "criminals" is the right designation for most rather than POWs.
 
  • #120
mheslep said:
Appears you've ignored the last part of Russ's response there:
George Washington didn't grant habeas and trials to British uniformed prisoners. I'm of a mind that the GITMO detainees should be treated either as POWs or criminals with a right to trial, and the government needs to pick one. That complication aside, I don't default to everyone picked up on a battlefield is entitled to a trial.

Edit: I see nismaratwork beat me to it.

My Kung-Fu is strong. :wink:

You said it in a more complete fashion however.

CRGreathouse: I think you're right, and that the majority of these are criminals and not POWs, but that means trials, and it remains to be seen if these people can be tried with evidence that isn't tainted by a lack of due process. I can just imagine the "fruit of the poisoned tree" analogy being used almost constantly.

Perhaps it's time that the Geneva Conventions have an addendum to deal with the realities of modern asymmetrical warfare.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
9K
  • · Replies 124 ·
5
Replies
124
Views
10K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 55 ·
2
Replies
55
Views
8K
Replies
33
Views
5K
  • · Replies 259 ·
9
Replies
259
Views
29K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K