GPS Satellites & the Twin Paradox: Time Dilation Explored

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of time dilation on GPS satellites as related to the twin paradox, exploring both Special Relativity (SR) and General Relativity (GR) in the context of GPS technology. Participants are examining how these relativistic effects influence the synchronization of satellite clocks with ground-based clocks, and whether the frequency of signals from ground stations has been measured in relation to satellite clocks.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that GPS satellites have been adjusted to account for both GR and SR time dilation effects due to their velocity and gravitational position.
  • Others argue that an orbiting satellite is not an inertial reference frame, complicating the application of SR.
  • It is noted that the GR effects are larger than the SR effects, and that the frequency measured by the satellites is crucial for accuracy.
  • One participant describes how the satellite clocks are preset to tick faster to compensate for the combined effects of SR and GR, resulting in a net difference of 38 microseconds per day compared to ground clocks.
  • Another participant emphasizes that both observers on Earth and in the satellite can be correct in their assessments of time dilation, highlighting the relativity of simultaneity.
  • Questions arise regarding the specific frequency being measured, with references to the cesium clocks and the modulation signals used in GPS technology.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of SR to non-inertial frames, and there is no consensus on the specifics of frequency measurements or the implications of the twin paradox in this context. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact nature of the frequency comparisons and the measurements involved.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on definitions of inertial frames, the complexity of relativistic effects, and the unresolved nature of certain mathematical steps in the discussion of time dilation effects.

  • #31
jtbell said:
If the two ships have the same "acceleration profiles" then yes, their clocks will show the same amount of elapsed time when they return to Earth.

I just want to know if you, all people who master relativity, agree whith the statement of jtbell.

If you give any further explanation, please, don't use the word "time", because I don't understand it, use "the reading on clock A".

And ( please again ) compare clocks when they are at the same place.

I understand that the clocks signal can be emitted ( by electromagnetic waves ) and received at another place where there is another clock, and the two clock signals can be compared ( yes, there will be a doppler effect ).

Thanks.
 
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  • #32
alvaros said:
So, if one twin takes off from North Pole direction North and the other takes off from South Pole direction South.
They accelerate at the same rate, until they spend the first tank of fuel (say one day )
They continue their voyage whit the engines off ( say one year, mesured by their own clock ).
They switch on their engines to return to earth, two days, two more tanks of fuel.
They continue their voyage towards Earth whit the engines off .
They land on Earth after another year, one day, another tank of fuel.

Their clocks have the same reading ??

As jtbell remarked, assuming you mean "celestial north" and "celestial south", the answer to this question is that both clocks on the spaceships will have the same reading (within experimental error) when the ships reunite.

[edit]It would actually be better if both ships took off in opposite directions perpendicular to the ecliptic plane of the solar system rather than to celestial north and south - you might get some very minor effects (depending on whether the launch was at solstice or equniox or somewhere in-between), but I don't think that's the point of the question.

I would think this would be obvious - it's a consequence of isotropy, the fact that neither "north" nor "south" is a preferred direction.
 
Last edited:
  • #33
pervect wrote:
"As jtbell remarked, assuming you mean "celestial north" and "celestial south", the answer to this question is that both clocks on the spaceships will have the same reading (within experimental error) when the ships reunite."

Ok, this is enough for me.

I suppose you all are tired of the same cuestion, I've seen it several times in the few days I've been reading this forum.

Thanks
 

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