Gradient and curvilinear coordinates

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The problem involves demonstrating a relationship in the context of curvilinear coordinates, specifically showing that the gradient of a generalized coordinate interacts with the partial derivatives of the position vector. The subject area pertains to vector calculus and coordinate transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the orthogonality of the gradient to the partial derivatives and explore the implications of using the chain rule. There is consideration of the relationship between the unit vectors in cylindrical coordinates and the dependencies of the coordinates themselves.

Discussion Status

Some participants have provided substitutions that may simplify the expression, while others are questioning the implications of coordinate dependencies and the behavior of partial derivatives when indices differ. The discussion is ongoing with no explicit consensus reached.

Contextual Notes

There is mention of the assumption that the partial derivative with respect to one coordinate treats the others as constants, which is a key point under discussion. The context of cylindrical coordinates is also noted as a potential source of confusion regarding dependencies.

Incand
Messages
334
Reaction score
47

Homework Statement


Show that ##\nabla u_i \cdot \frac{\partial \vec r}{\partial u_i} = \delta_{ij}##.

(##u_i## is assumed to be a generalized coordinate.)

Homework Equations


Gradient in curvilinear coordinates
##\nabla \phi = \sum_{i=1}^3 \vec e_i \frac{1}{h_i} \frac{\partial \phi}{\partial u_i}##

The Attempt at a Solution


So what I need to show is that the gradient is orthogonal to the (other two) partial derivatives (but it doesn't have to be parallel to the third since the system doesn't have to be orthogonal!).
The expression can then be written as
##\sum_{k=1}^3 \left( \vec e_k \frac{1}{h_k} \frac{\partial u_i}{\partial u_k} \right) \cdot \frac{\partial \vec r}{\partial u_j} = \sum_{k=1}^3 \frac{1}{h_k}\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial u_k}\frac{\partial r_k}{\partial u_j} ##.
I'm thinking I could use the chain rule here but I don't seem to get anywhere. Another thing of note is that ##\frac{1}{h_k}\frac{\partial \vec r}{\partial u_k} = \vec e_k## which may be of use somewhere.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
You can substitue ##\partial \vec{r}/\partial u_j = h_j \vec{e}_j## in your expression.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Incand
fzero said:
You can substitue ##\partial \vec{r}/\partial u_j = h_j \vec{e}_j## in your expression.
Thanks!
##\sum_{k=1}^3 \left( \vec e_k \frac{1}{h_k}\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial u_k} \right) \cdot \frac{h_j}{h_j} \frac{\partial \vec r}{\partial u_j} = \sum_{k=1}^3 \left( \vec e_k \frac{1}{h_k}\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial u_k} \right) \cdot h_j \vec e_j = \frac{\partial u_i}{\partial u_j}##.
Which is obviously ##1## for ##i=j## but how do I know that it's zero when ##i\ne j##? For me this isn't obvious. In a cylindrical coordinate system the unit vector ##\hat \rho## is dependent on ##\hat \phi## and the other way around so I don't see why the coordinates them self can't be dependent.
 
Incand said:
Thanks!
##\sum_{k=1}^3 \left( \vec e_k \frac{1}{h_k}\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial u_k} \right) \cdot \frac{h_j}{h_j} \frac{\partial \vec r}{\partial u_j} = \sum_{k=1}^3 \left( \vec e_k \frac{1}{h_k}\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial u_k} \right) \cdot h_j \vec e_j = \frac{\partial u_i}{\partial u_j}##.
Which is obviously ##1## for ##i=j## but how do I know that it's zero when ##i\ne j##? For me this isn't obvious. In a cylindrical coordinate system the unit vector ##\hat \rho## is dependent on ##\hat \phi## and the other way around so I don't see why the coordinates them self can't be dependent.

The partial derivative ##\partial/\partial u_j## is defined so that ##u_{i\neq j}## are treated as constants for the purpose of taking the derivative.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Incand
fzero said:
The partial derivative ##\partial/\partial u_j## is defined so that ##u_{i\neq j}## are treated as constants for the purpose of taking the derivative.
Right, I wasn't thinking clearly, Thanks!
 

Similar threads

Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
1K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K