Gradient theorem for time-dependent vector field

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the application of the gradient theorem to time-dependent vector fields, particularly exploring whether the theorem holds when considering a scalar field evaluated at different times along a particle's trajectory. Participants examine the implications of this theorem in both time-independent and time-dependent contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that for a time-independent scalar field, the relationship holds as stated, but questions whether it remains valid for time-dependent fields.
  • Another participant suggests that the gradient theorem can be viewed as a form of Stokes' Theorem and attempts to derive the relationship using the exterior derivative of the scalar field.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the terminology and notation used, specifically asking for clarification on the meaning of the integral over the boundary of gamma and the concept of the exterior derivative.
  • In response to the confusion, another participant explains that the integral over the boundary represents the oriented sum of the scalar field at the endpoints of the curve and provides a brief definition of the exterior derivative.
  • One participant reiterates the original question about the validity of the theorem for time-dependent fields and asks for clarification on the time variable used in the integral on the right side of the equation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the concepts discussed, with some seeking clarification on terminology. There is no consensus on the application of the gradient theorem to time-dependent fields, and multiple viewpoints are presented without resolution.

Contextual Notes

Some participants indicate uncertainty about the mathematical notation and concepts, such as the exterior derivative and the specific evaluation of the scalar field at different times. The discussion reflects a range of familiarity with the underlying mathematics.

dEdt
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Let's say we have some time-independent scalar field [itex]\phi[/itex]. Obviously [tex]\phi\left(\mathbf{q}\right)-\phi\left(\mathbf{p}\right) = \int_{\gamma[\mathbf{p},\,\mathbf{q}]} \nabla\phi(\mathbf{x})\cdot d\mathbf{x}.[/tex]
This is of course still true if the path [itex]\gamma[/itex] is the trajectory of a particle moving through space. But let's say we have a time-dependent field instead, with [itex]\gamma[/itex] still being the trajectory of the particle. Will
[tex]\phi(\mathbf{q},t_2)-\phi(\mathbf{p},t_1)=\int_{\gamma[\mathbf{p},\,\mathbf{q},t]} \nabla\phi(\mathbf{x} (t))\cdot d\mathbf{x}?[/tex]
 
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dEdt said:
Let's say we have some time-independent scalar field [itex]\phi[/itex]. Obviously [tex]\phi\left(\mathbf{q}\right)-\phi\left(\mathbf{p}\right) = \int_{\gamma[\mathbf{p},\,\mathbf{q}]} \nabla\phi(\mathbf{x})\cdot d\mathbf{x}.[/tex]
This is of course still true if the path [itex]\gamma[/itex] is the trajectory of a particle moving through space. But let's say we have a time-dependent field instead, with [itex]\gamma[/itex] still being the trajectory of the particle. Will
[tex]\phi(\mathbf{q},t_2)-\phi(\mathbf{p},t_1)=\int_{\gamma[\mathbf{p},\,\mathbf{q},t]} \nabla\phi(\mathbf{x} (t))\cdot d\mathbf{x}?[/tex]

Consider that the gradient theorem is basically a thinly disguised form of Stokes' Theorem, id est,

$$\int\limits_{\partial\gamma} \phi = \int\limits_{\gamma} d\phi$$

So, let's consider evaluating the exterior derivative of ##\phi(\vec{x}(t))##.

$$d\left(\phi(\vec{x}(t))\right) = \sum_{i=1}^{n}\frac{\partial\phi}{\partial x^i}dx^i = \langle\nabla\phi(\vec{x}(t)), \cdot\rangle$$
where the angle brackets denote the inner product of phi with something.

Do you agree with this? There are other ways to do this, but this method seems easiest.

(I'm fairly sure I did this right, but if someone from the upper math-y places wants to correct me, they should.)

If this works how I thinks it does,

$$\int\limits_{\partial\gamma}\phi(\vec{x}(t)) = \phi(\vec{q}(t))-\phi(\vec{p}(t)) = \int\limits_{\gamma} \langle\nabla\phi(\vec{x}(t)), d\vec{x}\rangle$$

where ##\vec{q}(t)## is the vector q at time t.
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry, but you're using a lot of terminology and notation that I'm unfamiliar with. What does [tex]\int_{\partial \gamma}\phi[/tex] mean? What's an exterior derivative?
 
dEdt said:
I'm sorry, but you're using a lot of terminology and notation that I'm unfamiliar with. What does [tex]\int_{\partial \gamma}\phi[/tex] mean? What's an exterior derivative?
Oh...sorry. That may be out of what you've learned before. My apologies.

##\int\limits_{\partial\gamma}\phi## would be the oriented sum of phi at the endpoints of ##\gamma##. Because ##\gamma## is 1-dimensional (it's a curve), its boundary is a finite set of points (namely, its endpoints).

The exterior derivative is a a generalization of the differential. See here.
 
dEdt said:
Let's say we have some time-independent scalar field [itex]\phi[/itex]. Obviously [tex]\phi\left(\mathbf{q}\right)-\phi\left(\mathbf{p}\right) = \int_{\gamma[\mathbf{p},\,\mathbf{q}]} \nabla\phi(\mathbf{x})\cdot d\mathbf{x}.[/tex]
This is of course still true if the path [itex]\gamma[/itex] is the trajectory of a particle moving through space. But let's say we have a time-dependent field instead, with [itex]\gamma[/itex] still being the trajectory of the particle. Will
[tex]\phi(\mathbf{q},t_2)-\phi(\mathbf{p},t_1)=\int_{\gamma[\mathbf{p},\,\mathbf{q},t]} \nabla\phi(\mathbf{x} (t))\cdot d\mathbf{x}?[/tex]
The left side is evaluated at two different values of t. What value of t are you using on the right?
 

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