Gravitation - Thorne, Misner, Wheeler

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the book "Gravitation" by Thorne, Misner, and Wheeler (MTW), focusing on its mathematical and physical prerequisites for understanding the material, as well as its presentation style and notation compared to modern texts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants consider MTW an excellent resource for deep understanding but note that its presentation is dated and uses archaic notation.
  • Others argue that the notation used in MTW, particularly Koszul notation, is not archaic and is still relevant in modern contexts.
  • One participant expresses a preference for more rigorous texts, such as Wald, while acknowledging that MTW covers unique topics and includes interesting problems.
  • It is suggested that a decent undergraduate exposure to mathematics is sufficient for understanding the "Track 1" material in MTW.
  • Some participants mention that familiarity with Lagrangian mechanics and prior physics knowledge, such as that from the Feynman Lectures, may be beneficial for readers approaching MTW.
  • There is a contention regarding the use of abstract index notation, with some participants asserting that MTW does not use it, while others point out that several modern texts also do not employ this notation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the quality and relevance of MTW's notation and presentation style. There is no consensus on whether the notation is outdated or still applicable, and preferences for different texts vary widely.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the subtlety in notation differences and the varying levels of mathematical sophistication required for different texts, indicating that assumptions about prior knowledge may influence opinions on MTW.

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What do you think about this book? What level of mathematics and physics knowledge is needed to understand the material?
 
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It's an excellent book, though it's presentation is dated. For example, it uses notation that is considered relatively archaic today. Is it excellent for getting a deep understanding of the material, but you might want to supplement it with a more modern text. You will have to supplement it if your intention is to be able to read current literature.

It's also enormous and pretty wordy, so you might find some parts of it a little tedious. You don't really need much more than an decent undergraduate exposure to math, at least for it's "Track 1" material.

- Warren
 
Where do MTW use archaic notation? They were more enthusiastic about Koszul notation than is common in GR books these days, but that is not archaic notation, it's very much modern notation. Compare with doCarmo, Riemannian Geometry or Kuhnel, Differential Geometry.
 
MTW does not use abstract index notation, which is the currently accepted notation.

- Warren
 
I don't like it very much. I prefer texts that are more rigorous and to-the-point. Wald is excellent, for example, but requires more mathematical sophistication. Still, MTW discusses many things that are not in any other texts. It also has a lot of fun and interesting problems.
 
MTW starts out pretty easy and ramps up gradually. If you have physics at the level of, say, the Feynman Lectures volumes 1 & 2, you should be reasonably prepared for track 1. A knowledge of Lagrangian mechanics would probably be helpful as well.
 
chroot said:
MTW does not use abstract index notation, which is the currently accepted notation.

I think you're way overstating this. None of the following use abstract index notation AFAICT:

Poisson (2004)
Carroll (2004)
Ohanian & Ruffini (1994)
Felice & Clarke (1992)
Schutz (1985)

Of course the difference is very subtle, so maybe I'm wrong. In fact, the difference is so subtle, I'm not sure why anyone would make a big deal about it. In any case, the notation used in MTW is in no way "archaic" relative to current usage, except that nowadays Koszul notation is not used much in GR books.
 

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