Gravitational analog of electromagnetic force

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the concept of gravitoelectromagnetism, proposed by Oliver Heaviside in 1893, which serves as a gravitational analog to electromagnetic force. It highlights the relationship between moving masses and the potential fields they create, akin to moving charges generating magnetic fields. The conversation references key concepts such as frame dragging and Lense-Thirring effects, confirmed by Gravity Probe B, and discusses the implications of these theories on Newtonian gravity and general relativity. The need for further research into higher-order corrections and their experimental verification is emphasized.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of gravitoelectromagnetism
  • Familiarity with general relativity and Newtonian gravity
  • Knowledge of frame dragging and Lense-Thirring effects
  • Basic grasp of electromagnetic theory, particularly Lorentz invariance
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the implications of gravitoelectromagnetism on general relativity
  • Study the experimental verification of frame dragging and Lense-Thirring effects
  • Explore the Hamiltonian formulation of the Einstein-Hilbert action
  • Investigate models bridging Newtonian gravity and general relativity
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Physicists, astrophysicists, and students of theoretical physics interested in the intersection of gravitational and electromagnetic theories, as well as those exploring advanced concepts in general relativity.

synch
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Is there a gravitational analog of electromagnetic force?
[Apart from the obvious "static" forces, ie electrostatic between fixed charges and gravitational between fixed masses.]
I am thinking of the classic situation of a moving charge (or current) creating a magnetic field which then affects other moving charges. So a question by analogy, does a moving mass have an additional field which is only detected by other moving mass ? It would be very very small I guess.
 
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Are you trying to find things that the two types of force have in common? Google is your friend here. I tried "compare and contrast gravitational and EM forces" and there were loads of hits.
I don't think you can expect to get much out of PF responses to your question because any answers are going to be divergent (most likely correct but divergent). I think you will need to read around by yourself and come to your own conclusions. I'm not trying to dodge the question but from the way it's presented , I don't think you are sure what you actually want to know. Reading around can help you resolve this.
 
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There's 'teleparallel gravity', which is still hypothetical. IIRC, it reckons space/time twisted up one way gives our familiar EM, in another gives gravity. As yet, the different 'flavours' are mutually exclusive...
Sadly, beyond a fascinating article in New Scientist a couple of years ago, I've seen nothing about it that was comprehensible without serious math...
 
Gravitational analog of electromagnetic force was proposed by Oliver Heaviside in 1893 as gravitoelectromagnetism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitoelectromagnetism
Now it is seen as the first correction to Newton toward general relativity, as magnetism in EM necessary for Lorentz invariance, directly confirmed by Gravity Probe B.

mzbpD6u.png
 
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Thanks everyone ! Well appreciated.
I (now) wonder if anything with a non-zero spin can be regarded as "fixed" apart from approximation. But that is a whole different question and topic. Thanks again :smile:
 
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I think a traditional view is that gravity does not have "positive" and "negative" masses. These two are required for an electric current to create a magnetic field via Relativity (see Electricity and Magnetism by Purcell).
 
But the switch of sign between Coulomb and Newton seems a very difficult problem (I am recently thinking about) - having two masses as sources of curvature, taking them closer total energy should grow, what means repulsion.

E.g. in liquid crystals they get Coulomb-like interaction between topological charges:
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2019/sm/c9sm01710k#!divAbstract
https://journals.aps.org/pre/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevE.76.011707
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-16200-z
Below is example calculation of effective Coulomb potential for such two topological charges in various distances ... but how to switch sign for Newton?
Is there such calculation of approximately Newton effective potential from general relativity Einstein-Hilbert action (->Hamiltonian)?

CoulombCaption.png
 
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Can one express some GR scenarios as having a "gravitoelectric" and "gravitomagnetic" part? Yes, Is it helpful in making calculations? Almost never.
 
  • #10
"Gravitoelectric" is Newton force approximation, "gravitomagnetic" are the first order corrections (necessary for Lorentz invariance): frame dragging, Lense-Thirring, e.g. tested by Gravity Probe B: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitoelectromagnetism
The big question are higher order corrections, their experimental verification.

Simple simulator for Kepler problem e.g. around rotating black hole with GEM approximation: https://demonstrations.wolfram.com/KeplerProblemWithClassicalSpinOrbitInteraction/
popup_2.jpg


I have just found calculated Hamiltonian for Einstein-Hilbert (far nontrivial): page 24-27 of https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.03537
But I cannot find further derivation of approximately Newton effective potential like above: place two masses in various distances, calculate energy-distance dependence from integration of Hamiltonian (?)
 
  • #11
JD23 said:
Gravitational analog of electromagnetic force was proposed by Oliver Heaviside in 1893 as gravitoelectromagnetism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitoelectromagnetism
Now it is seen as the first correction to Newton toward general relativity, as magnetism in EM necessary for Lorentz invariance, directly confirmed by Gravity Probe B.

View attachment 328536
It is interesting to note, that these equations do not predict gravitational time dilation nor gravity bending light. But modifying these equations a little bit would give a model, that also predicts time dilation and gravity bending light. I wonder how many possible models of physics there are between Newtonian gravity and GR.
 
  • #12
olgerm said:
I wonder how many possible models of physics there are between Newtonian gravity and GR.
An infinite number.

Force = x(Predicted by Theory A) + (1-x)(Predicted by Theory B).

How many values of x can there be.
 
  • #13
We can also write down gravitomagnetic equations using gravitomagnetic-4-potential.


EM equations:
##dA_{E0}/dx0+dA_E1/dx1+dA_E2/dx2+dA_E3/dx3=0## (lorentz gauge condition)
##-dA_{E0}^2/dx0^2+dA_{E0}^2/dx1^2+dA_{E0}^2/dx2^2+dA_{E0}^2/dx3^2+J_{E0}=0##
##-dA_{E1}^2/dx0^2+dA_{E1}^2/dx1^2+dA_{E1}^2/dx2^2+dA_{E1}^2/dx3^2+J_{E1}=0##
##-dA_{E2}^2/dx0^2+dA_{E2}^2/dx1^2+dA_{E2}^2/dx2^2+dA_{E2}^2/dx3^2+J_{E2}=0##
##-dA_{E3}^2/dx0^2+dA_{E3}^2/dx1^2+dA_{E3}^2/dx2^2+dA_{E3}^2/dx3^2+J_{E3}=0##

GEM analog equations:
for gravity
##dA_{G0}/dx0+dA_E1/dx1+dA_E2/dx2+dA_E3/dx3=0## (lorentz gauge condition)
##-dA_{G0}^2/dx0^2+dA_{G0}^2/dx1^2+dA_{G0}^2/dx2^2+dA_{G0}^2/dx3^2+J_{G0}=0##
##-dA_{G1}^2/dx0^2+dA_{G1}^2/dx1^2+dA_{G1}^2/dx2^2+dA_{G1}^2/dx3^2+J_{G1}=0##
##-dA_{G2}^2/dx0^2+dA_{G2}^2/dx1^2+dA_{G2}^2/dx2^2+dA_{G2}^2/dx3^2+J_{G2}=0##
##-dA_{G3}^2/dx0^2+dA_{G3}^2/dx1^2+dA_{G3}^2/dx2^2+dA_{G3}^2/dx3^2+J_{G3}=0##
for electromagnetism:
##dA_{E0}/dx0+dA_E1/dx1+dA_E2/dx2+dA_E3/dx3=0## (lorentz gauge condition)
##-dA_{E0}^2/dx0^2+dA_{E0}^2/dx1^2+dA_{E0}^2/dx2^2+dA_{E0}^2/dx3^2+J_{E0}=0##
##-dA_{E1}^2/dx0^2+dA_{E1}^2/dx1^2+dA_{E1}^2/dx2^2+dA_{E1}^2/dx3^2+J_{E1}=0##
##-dA_{E2}^2/dx0^2+dA_{E2}^2/dx1^2+dA_{E2}^2/dx2^2+dA_{E2}^2/dx3^2+J_{E2}=0##
##-dA_{E3}^2/dx0^2+dA_{E3}^2/dx1^2+dA_{E3}^2/dx2^2+dA_{E3}^2/dx3^2+J_{E3}=0##

Or to make also gravity bend light and dilate time:
for gravity:
##dA_{G0}/dx0/A_{G0}+dA_{G1}/dx1/A_{G1}+dA_{G2}/dx2/A_{G2}+dA_{G3}/dx3/A_{G3}=0##
##-dA_{G0}^2/dx0^2/A_{G0}+dA_{G0}^2/dx1^2/A_{G1}+dA_{G0}^2/dx2^2/A_{G2}+dA_{G0}^2/dx3^2/A_{G3}+J_{G0}=0##
##-dA_{G1}^2/dx0^2/A_{G0}+dA_{G1}^2/dx1^2/A_{G1}+dA_{G1}^2/dx2^2/A_{G2}+dA_{G1}^2/dx3^2/A_{G3}+J_{G1}=0##
##-dA_{G2}^2/dx0^2/A_{G0}+dA_{G2}^2/dx1^2/A_{G1}+dA_{G2}^2/dx2^2/A_{G2}+dA_{G2}^2/dx3^2/A_{G3}+J_{G2}=0##
##-dA_{G3}^2/dx0^2/A_{G0}+dA_{G3}^2/dx1^2/A_{G1}+dA_{G3}^2/dx2^2/A_{G2}+dA_{G3}^2/dx3^2/A_{G3}+J_{G3}=0##

for light:
##dA_{E0}/dx0/A_{G0}+dA_{E1}/dx1/A_{G1}+dA_{E2}/dx2/A_{G2}+dA_{E3}/dx3/A_{G3}=0##
##-dA_{E0}^2/dx0^2/A_{G0}+dA_{E0}^2/dx1^2/A_{G1}+dA_{E0}^2/dx2^2/A_{G2}+dA_{E0}^2/dx3^2/A_{G3}+J_{E0}=0##
##-dA_{E1}^2/dx0^2/A_{G0}+dA_{E1}^2/dx1^2/A_{G1}+dA_{E1}^2/dx2^2/A_{G2}+dA_{E1}^2/dx3^2/A_{G3}+J_{E1}=0##
##-dA_{E2}^2/dx0^2/A_{G0}+dA_{E2}^2/dx1^2/A_{G1}+dA_{E2}^2/dx2^2/A_{G2}+dA_{E2}^2/dx3^2/A_{G3}+J_{E2}=0##
##-dA_{E3}^2/dx0^2/A_{G0}+dA_{E3}^2/dx1^2/A_{G1}+dA_{E3}^2/dx2^2/A_{G2}+dA_{E3}^2/dx3^2/A_{G3}+J_{E3}=0##


##J_G## is energy-flow density. It's 0th component ##J_{G0}## is energy-density.
 
  • #14
Vanadium 50 said:
An infinite number.

Force = x(Predicted by Theory A) + (1-x)(Predicted by Theory B).

How many values of x can there be.
Newtonian gravity and GEM can not be mixed that way because Newtonian gravity is Galilei-invariant, but GEM is lorenz-invariant.

1 interesting thing about GEM is that GM field itself has energy density (##J_{G0}=E_{G0}^2/2+B_{G12}^2/2+B_{G13}^2/2+E_{B23}^2/2##). Would it not cause some positive feedback runaway loop that causes energy density to increase unlimitlessly? where GM-field creates more energy density and more energy-density creates more GM field?
 
  • #15
synch said:
Is there a gravitational analog of electromagnetic force?
[Apart from the obvious "static" forces, ie electrostatic between fixed charges and gravitational between fixed masses.]
I am thinking of the classic situation of a moving charge (or current) creating a magnetic field which then affects other moving charges. So a question by analogy, does a moving mass have an additional field which is only detected by other moving mass ? It would be very very small I guess.

There is a way to break down, or decompose, the curvature tensor in General relativity (called the Riemann tensor) into parts, which can be loosely interpreted as an "electric part", a "magnetic part", and a "topological (curvature) part". This is a bit different than the GEM formalism, also known as Gravitoelectromagnetism, which has also been mentioned in this thread, in that it works even in the strong field case, rather than being a linear approximation.

The first two parts would probably be described in popularizations as a 'force'. (That's not 100% accurate). The last part would be described in popularizations as "the curvature of space" rather than as a force. (That description is similarly not 100% accurate). I personally think it's close enough to not be horribly misleading, which is pretty good for a popularization about General Relativity.

The original paper is in French and I haven't been able to get a hold of it or a translation (or even the original). See the wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bel_decomposition for the Wiki reference. Unlike the GEM formalism, the decomposition works even in strong fields. There are some discussions in "Gravitation" which break the Riemann tensor into different parts, but they don't mention Bel by name.

To perform the decomposition, one needs to define what might be called "the observers flow of time", more formally a timelike congruence, or a unit timelike vector field. This additional information given by the flow of time gives the necessary information to sensibly decompose spacetime as a unified entiity into a spatial part and a time part, and similarly how to decompose the electromagnetic field into an "electric" part and a "magnetic" part.

Nasa's descritpion of Gravity Probe B disucssses the use of the GEM analogy in the context of the Gravity probe B experiment, though I find their presentation a bit murky. If you are not familiar, gravity probe B was designed to detect frame dragging effects predicted by GR, effects which are even smaller than the GEM effects, which are also present and also measured by the GPB experiment. To give an idea of the magnitude of the effects, it would take only about 200,000 years for the GPB gyroscopes to precess through a full 360 degree arc due to the geodetic effect.
 
  • #16
pervect said:
The original paper is in French and I haven't been able to get a hold of it or a translation (or even the original). See the wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bel_decomposition for the Wiki reference. Unlike the GEM formalism, the decomposition works even in strong fields. There are some discussions in "Gravitation" which break the Riemann tensor into different parts, but they don't mention Bel by name.
Is this the paper you seek? From the WIkipedia article....
Bel, L. (1958), "Définition d'une densité d'énergie et d'un état de radiation totale généralisée", Comptes rendus hebdomadaires des séances de l'Académie des sciences 246: 3015
It is hyperlinked to
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k723q/f965.item.langEN

from poking around... this also may be of interest:
https://www.numdam.org/item/SJ_1958-1959__2__A12_0.pdf
LOUIS BEL
La radiation gravitationnelle
Séminaire Janet. Mécanique analytique et mécanique céleste, tome 2 (1958-1959),
exp.no12, p.1-16
http://www.numdam.org/item?id=SJ_1958-1959__2__A12_0

Here are some translations (by a classmate from grad school):

https://www.neo-classical-physics.info/uploads/3/4/3/6/34363841/bel_-_energy_density.pdf
https://www.neo-classical-physics.info/uploads/3/4/3/6/34363841/bel_-_grav._rad..pdf
https://www.neo-classical-physics.info/uploads/3/4/3/6/34363841/bel_-_curvature_tensor.pdf
 
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