Macroscopic objects in free-fall

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of macroscopic objects in free-fall, particularly focusing on the effects of internal forces, such as electromagnetic interactions, on the motion of an object's center of mass and its constituents. Participants explore theoretical implications in the context of general relativity and the concept of center of mass in systems involving light.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that while internal electromagnetic forces affect the paths of individual constituents of an object, the center of mass of the object remains in a geodesic free-fall path.
  • Others argue that the motion of the center of mass can be influenced by internal dynamics, such as a bouncing ball inside a sphere, yet it still follows a geodesic path overall.
  • A later reply questions how the system behaves if a massless light replaces a massive ball, prompting discussions about the center of mass in systems with massless components.
  • Some participants clarify that a system containing light can still have a center of mass, which may be better termed as a "center of energy" or "center of energy-momentum" when considering relativistic effects.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of tidal gravity on the center of mass and whether it coincides with the center of gravity, leading to further exploration of how non-spherical mass distributions affect these concepts.
  • Participants express confusion regarding the definitions of "tidal effects" and "center of gravity," indicating varying levels of understanding of these terms in the context of the discussion.
  • The term "spherical cow" is introduced humorously to illustrate the simplifications often made in physics modeling.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the center of mass of a system follows a geodesic path through spacetime under certain conditions, but there is disagreement regarding the implications of internal forces and tidal effects on this behavior. The discussion remains unresolved on several points, particularly concerning the effects of tidal gravity and the definitions of key terms.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about spherical symmetry and the effects of tidal gravity, which may not hold in all scenarios. The discussion also highlights the complexity of defining the center of mass in systems involving massless particles.

  • #31
PeterDonis said:
But if the tidal effects are non-negligible, those non-geodesic paths will still result in a shape of the body that is different from what its shape would have been in flat spacetime in the absence of any geodesic deviation (i.e., spacetime curvature).
However, as you highlighted before, even in this case the body's COM continues to follow a geodesic path in free-fall.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: hutchphd
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
cianfa72 said:
as you highlighted before, even in this case the body's COM continues to follow a geodesic path in free-fall.
Yes.
 
  • #33
cianfa72 said:
TL;DR: Analysis of macroscopic objects in free-fall in gravitational field

Hi,
very basic question. Take an object like a rock or the Earth itself. If we consider their internal constituents, there will be electromagnetic forces acting between them (Newton's 3th law pairs).

From a global perspective if the rock is free from external non-gravitational forces, then it will be in free-fall in gravitational field (i.e. spacetime geometry).

What about the aforementioned internal forces ? If we look at the center of mass (as object’s representative), then the electromagnetic internal forces driving the object’s costituents away from their geodesic paths will not enter into account, I believe.

It seems to me you are asking, at least in in part, about the self-force problem. "How does a particle, the thing that you are calling a constituent of your larger body, move taking into account the field it itself generates".

This is a simple question to which AFAIK we don't have a definitive fully satisfactory answer, even in electromagnetism. I gather we do have some less than complete answers and approximations, but I've never quite understood them.

Test particles without mass don't generate fields and don't have the self-force problem, they do follow geodesics. In general, things are messier and I don't know the answers, just that they're messy.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
3K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
7K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
5K
  • · Replies 66 ·
3
Replies
66
Views
5K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
4K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K