Great News: I paid > $3.00/gallon for gas today

[Ivan Seeking]

From what I have read and observed, 3 is the magic number. At this price people begin to change their habbits. At $3.00 per gallon for diesel, the local biodiesel is competitive; it sells for the same or less.

 

[franznietzsche]

From what I have read and observed, 3 is the magic number. At this price people begin to change their habbits. At $3.00 per gallon for diesel, the local biodiesel is competitive; it sells for the same or less.

Bugger that its been over $3 out here for more than a year, with the sole exception of when oil prices crashed almost down to $50 a barrel. It was $3.50 last june, and its only slightly lower than that now.

 

[mattmns]

Woah, franz, welcome back.We are getting close to that $3/gallon price, we are at $2.89/gallon at the station closest to my house, but I am sure it will be above $3 in a week or two. I should probably say that I don't drive, so I really don't worry too much about gas prices (maybe I should, I don't know).

 

[Cyrus]

I just saved a ton of money by switching to Geico.

 

[wolram]

Heck i would be able to buy another motorbike on the money
i saved if gas was only $3 over here.

 

[Ki Man]

Lol.. i find it kinda funny that you guys are still considering $3 an extremely high price.. we'e had 3+ in california for a while, i was suprised we were able to get back down to $2 for a month or so, then it went back up

 

[Integral]

So what are the prices running in So Cal now? We will be heading that way with our new gas guzzler next month.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Prices in California are projected to be above $6 a gallon for the summer. Regular gas cost an average of $3.25 in the state last week but will rise to $5 by next month

Of course it could be that I was Just kidding.

Prices in California are projected to be above $3 a gallon for the summer. Regular gas cost an average of $3.25 in the state last week

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={6BC27F17-FD85-4C28-A7AD-4227447B89FA}

 

[Astronuc]

Our gasoline prices have been steadily increasing, sometimes by $0.01-0.03/day. I am not sure why, except demand is strong and supply is tight (although that seems somewhat contrived). Oil prices go down, but the price of gasoline goes up.

I did hear that the conversion of some refining units from heating oil to gasoline, or from winter blend to summer blend was delayed because of the extended cold.

Right now, the price of regular is between $2.90-$2.96 in our area, which is up about $0.06 from two days ago.

 

[Art]

From what I have read and observed, 3 is the magic number. At this price people begin to change their habbits. At $3.00 per gallon for diesel, the local biodiesel is competitive; it sells for the same or less.

What's good about biodiesel? Most biodiesel in the US comes from corn and there is a net loss between the energy used in production and conversion, which comes largely from fossil fuels, and the energy derived.

 

[brewnog]

I paid $7.74 a gallon this morning.

 

[Art]

An interesting article relating to bio-fuels

Ethanol cars may not be healthier
Ethanol vehicles may have worse effects on human health than conventional petrol, US scientists have warned.
A computer model set up to simulate air quality in 2020 found that in some areas ozone levels would increase if all cars were run on bioethanol.

Deaths from respiratory problems and asthma attacks would increase with such levels, the researchers reported in Environmental Science and Technology.

The EU has agreed that biofuels should be used in 10% of transport by 2020.

Mark Jacobson, an atmospheric scientist at Stanford University in California, used a computer model which took into account factors such as temperatures, sunlight, clouds and rain to simulate air quality in 2020 for two different scenarios.

In one simulation all vehicles were fuelled by petrol and in the other all vehicles were fuelled by E85 - a mix of 85% ethanol and 15% petrol.

If all cars were run on E85, he found that in some parts of the US there were significant increases in ozone - a pollutant with harmful effects on the human respiratory system - compared with petrol cars.

In the study, the increase in smog translated to an extra 200 deaths per year in the whole of the US, with 120 occurring in Los Angeles alone.

Increases in ozone in some areas of the US would be offset by decreases in other areas but overall there would be 770 additional visits to accident and emergency and 990 additional hospitalisations for asthma and other respiratory problems, the results showed.

Although ethanol was found to reduce levels of two atmospheric carcinogens, levels of others increased so associated cancers would be the same as with pollution caused by petrol fumes, the study showed.

Damage

"We found that using E85 will cause at least as much health damage as gasoline, which already causes about 10,000 premature deaths annually from ozone and particulate matter," said Jacobson.

"The question is, if we're not getting any health benefits, then why continue to promote ethanol and other biofuels."

He added: "By comparison, converting all vehicles to battery-electric, where the electricity is from wind energy would eliminate 10,000 air pollution deaths per year and 98% of carbon emissions from vehicles."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6563255.stm
These green environmentalists are ruining the environment

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What's good about biodiesel? Most biodiesel in the US comes from corn and there is a net loss between the energy used in production and conversion, which comes largely from fossil fuels, and the energy derived.

You are confusing ethanol with biodiesel. Biodiesel is made from many different seed stock and yields about a net 60% energy gain - ie every one-hundred gallons made require about forty gallons worth of energy for cultivation and processing. Of course biodiesel is made from from canola, mustard, rape, palm, corn, cotton, hemp, soybean, hazelnut, euphorbia, sesame, sunflower, cotton, cocoa, peanuts, avacado, coconuts, olives..., and best of all, algae, so the processing needs can vary depending on the stock. Some are certainly far better than others. Corn yields about 18 gallons per acre-year. Algae can produce as much as 20,000 gallons per acre year.

The aquatic species program studied algae for biodiesel production for almost twenty years. It was determined that this would be a competitive option when fuel prices are about a dollar per gallon cheaper than it is today.

 

[Quaoar]

Gas prices aren't that bad. The only reason why people complain so much is because they are the only product that advertises their prices with gigantic signs that people can't miss.

 

[edward]

Our gasoline prices have been steadily increasing, sometimes by $0.01-0.03/day. I am not sure why, except demand is strong and supply is tight (although that seems somewhat contrived). Oil prices go down, but the price of gasoline goes up.

I did hear that the conversion of some refining units from heating oil to gasoline, or from winter blend to summer blend was delayed because of the extended cold.

Right now, the price of regular is between $2.90-$2.96 in our area, which is up about $0.06 from two days ago.

The oil companies are also saying that the supply is slowed in the Spring because they have to start adding ethanol or MBTE to produce the oxygenated fuels many cities require.

The odd thing is that every spring catches them by surprise and they aren't ready for it. I think that they should be held accountable for the yearly spring windfall profits. They have no incentive to want to change the refining processes on their own.

 

[JasonRox]

I heard Biodiesel emmitt's more carbon than regular diesel. Is that true? If you say no, then is there a source?

Remember, I'm not arguing it is, so don't ask for a source from me. I just heard. If you just heard it is not true, than say so or provide a source.

 

[Moonbear]

I heard Biodiesel emmitt's more carbon than regular diesel. Is that true? If you say no, then is there a source?

I don't know if it's true or not, but one factor to consider is that growing the crops for it also absorbs carbon, so if someone does have information on that, we'd need to know the net difference between carbon used in production and released during burning to know if one really was better or worse than the other overall.

As for gas prices going up, I don't know if that's really going to change anyone's habits much. Maybe for a short time while they complain at the initial shock, but then they'll get used to it again and go right back to what they were doing before. We've already hit $3/gal many times before in the past few years, and it hasn't changed much. It's not like it's more cost-effective to run out and buy a new car, and there aren't any other options around here as alternative fuels for the cars people already have, and we don't have any public transportation worth using, so even if people here wanted to do something different, they really can't. More likely, the habits that will change are other things they cut back buying so they have the money to pay for gas (or the rising cost of everything else as the higher prices start affecting everything that requires shipping).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Since all of the carbon in the algae [grown in open ponds] and other crops comes from the atmosphere, biodiesel is considered to be carbon neutral. I do sometimes see numbers like 95% neutral, which I don't yet understand. However, algae for biodiesel production is being investigated and used to scrub carbon dioxide from industrial emissions, so in this case biodiesel is considered to be made from "recycled carbon".

 

[brewnog]

Biodiesel is carbon neutral; the carbon released as CO2 during combustion is equal to that absorbed by the plant from atmospheric CO2 during its life.

I believe the 95% efficiency referred to by Ivan is to take into account carbon released (from tractors, trucks and refineries etc) used during production, processing, and transport of the fuel.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I wondered about that: It assumes that we don't use biodiesel power to make biodiesel. If so, that can eventually be avoided.

 

[brewnog]

I wondered about that: It assumes that we don't use biodiesel power to make biodiesel. If so, that can eventually be avoided.

It could definitely be improved (biodiesel trucks and tractors), but I don't know enough about the refining systems to know whether you could eliminate all additional carbon release from the SVO to RME process, or whatever.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Something else that came to mind as a potential candidate for the 5% are other sources of carbon, such as carbon from carbonates that may be absorbed by the plants. But then not all carbon is converted to CO2 during combustion, so this makes me wonder if elemental carbon emissions [soot and other particulates] are included here, or if it is assumed that all carbon ends up as CO2.

 

[mathwonk]

in 1970 i drove cross country paying an average of 30 cents a gallon for gas. prices of most things tend to double each decade. after 30 years, i.e. in 2000, that predicts a price of $2.40 a gallon, and at least $3.00 a gallon now.

gas is not high at all, considering many many people here are choosing to drive very inefficient vehicles. in order to conserve resources and encourage more efficient cars, gas taxes need to be far higher.

 

[franznietzsche]

Biofuels are not a sustainable alternative to oil in anyway. On small scales they are fine, but to convert all our transportation to these fuels would require us to starve from burning all our food to drive cars.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Not with algae. In fact, given an area of about 310X310 miles, we could replace all souces of energy - coal, petro, NG, and all electrical. Algae does not need to compete with food for land, or for clean water, which is often another real concern. In fact, in some cases we can produce biodiesel by cleaning up industrial and municipal waste.

 

[franznietzsche]

Not with algae. In fact, given an area of about 310X310 miles, we could replace all souces of energy - coal, petro, NG, and all electrical.

Source? Is that for the US? Global? You're talking about an area approximately the size of half the state of california.

http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2005/06/university_of_n.html

To further expand on possibility of attaining self sufficiency in liquid fuels the following is offered: To replace all transportation fuels in the US, we would need roughly 140 billion gallons of biodiesel. To produce that amount of biodiesel by growing soybeans would require almost 3 billion acres or over 1 billion acres growing canola (rapeseed), at nominal yields of 48 and 127 gallons oil per acre, respectively.(7) To produce that amount, by growing algae producing 15,000 gallons per acre, would require a land mass of roughly 9.5 million acres (almost 15,000 square miles ). To put these numbers in perspective, consider that the Sonora desert in the southwestern US comprises 120,000 square miles...450 million acres are currently used for crop farming in the US, and over 500 million acres are used as grazing land for farm animals (1). As has been shown here it is not possible to grow enough of the more conventional crops to meet our fuel needs, but using algae it is possible.

Hmm, seems it is true. Though I find this sources referral to hard amounts rather than production and consumption rates to be questionable.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In Oregon we have a little over 500,000 acres of grass fields. Using the average number quoted [10,000 gallons per acre-year] this is enough land to produce about 5,000,000,000 gallons of fuel a year.

Some sources are now claiming double that rate of production per acre-year.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Source? Is that for the US? Global? You're talking about an area approximately the size of half the state of california.

I will have to dig up the source I used for the total US energy demand, but by chance I just did this calc the other night [just out of curiosity]. But the production rate of 10K gallons per year are available at nearly any biodiesel from algae source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

Biodiesel contains about 118,300 BTUs per gallon.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...iesel+energy+content&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

I don't think it is practical or necessary to convert everything to biodiesel, but the fact that even in principle it is possible is very exciting. I have never seen such a viable option.

 

[franznietzsche]

I will have to dig up the source I used for the total US energy demand, but by chance I just did this calc the other night [just out of curiosity]. But the production rate of 10K gallons per year are available at nearly any biodiesel from algae source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

Biodiesel contains about 118,300 BTUs per gallon.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...iesel+energy+content&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

I don't think it is practical or necessary to convert everything to biodiesel, but the fact that even in principle it is possible is very exciting. I have never seen such a viable option.

Actually based on that limited info biodiesel from algae is more attractive than any of the alternatives. Ethanol is a horrendous idea. Electric cars are just as bad an idea. Fuel cell driven cars aren't as bad an idea, but still not great.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I didn't spot my source but I have 100E15 [100 quadrillion] BTUs annually. Also, that should be 370X370 miles.