Group isomorphism and Polynomial ring modulo ideal

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of group isomorphism and the structure of a polynomial ring modulo an ideal, specifically focusing on the groups (Z/14Z)* and (Z/9Z)*, as well as the ring Z_2[X]/(x^2 + x + 1). Participants are exploring the criteria for group isomorphism and the representation of elements in the polynomial ring.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether showing that the order of each element is the same in two groups is sufficient for proving isomorphism.
  • Another participant asserts that it is not enough to show the order of elements alone for group isomorphism.
  • There is a discussion about the necessity of the binary operation being the same in both groups, with a clarification that an isomorphism must preserve the operation.
  • Participants discuss the elements of the ring Z_2[X]/(x^2 + x + 1), with one participant initially omitting the element 0 and later questioning the representation of the elements.
  • There is confusion regarding the inclusion of the element 1 in the representation of the ring's elements, with participants expressing differing views on how to represent these elements correctly.
  • One participant attempts to clarify the elements of the ring by stating that in Z_2, a = -a, and provides a new representation of the elements based on this understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on the criteria for group isomorphism, as one participant asserts that element order alone is insufficient while another does not provide a counterargument. There is also disagreement regarding the correct representation of elements in the polynomial ring, with multiple interpretations presented.

Contextual Notes

There are missing assumptions regarding the definitions of isomorphism and the structure of the polynomial ring, as well as unresolved questions about the representation of elements in the ring.

X-il3
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Hi everyone.

I have two questions that I hope you can help me with.

First when trying to show isomorphism between groups is it enough to show that the order of each element within the group is the same in the other group? For example the groups (Z/14Z)* and (Z/9Z)*. They are both of order 6 and both have
1 element of order 1
1 element of order 2
2 elements of order 3
2 elements of order 6
And does the binary operator have to be the same in both groups when doing group isomorphism?

And the second question(actually the third one:smile:). I am trying to write the multiplication table for the following ring
Z_2[X]/(x^2 + x +). I know that this ring has 4 elements. Is it correct that the elements are the following
1
x + 1
x^2 + 1
x^2 + x + 1
?

Hope you can help me with this,

X-il3
 
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X-il3 said:
First when trying to show isomorphism between groups is it enough to show that the order of each element within the group is the same in the other group?

No.

And does the binary operator have to be the same in both groups when doing group isomorphism?

What do you mean by 'same'? If f is an isomorphism then f(xy)=f(x)f(y), if that's what you mean.


Z_2[X]/(x^2 + x +).

Is there a missing 1 there?

I know that this ring has 4 elements. Is it correct that the elements are the following
1
x + 1
x^2 + 1
x^2 + x + 1

Where is 0? Why haven't you written down x or x^x+x? (You have, by the way, but you have made a strange choice of representatives of the elements, which is why I ask, since it implies you've not really understood what you're doing.
 
matt grime said:
Is there a missing 1 there?
Yes there was 1 missing there.


matt grime said:
Where is 0? Why haven't you written down x or x^x+x? (You have, by the way, but you have made a strange choice of representatives of the elements, which is why I ask, since it implies you've not really understood what you're doing.
I thought the identity element in multiplication is 1 and therefore no 0. How would you represent the elements in this ring? More like this
0
x
x^2
x^2 + x
? Leaving the 1 out from all the elements?

X-il3
 
Now where's 1 gone? (Again, it is still there in disguise which makes more confused as toy what you're trying to do).
 
matt grime said:
Now where's 1 gone? (Again, it is still there in disguise which makes more confused as toy what you're trying to do).

Ok here is one more try. Hope I get it right this time :smile:.
Since we are working in Z_2 then a = -a where a is an element in Z_2.

We know that X^2 + x + 1 = 0 = [0]. Moving numbers around now we then get the remaining 3 elements in the ring.
x^2 + x = 1 = [1]
x^2 + 1 = x = [x]
x + 1 = x^2 = [x^2]

X-il3
 

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