Has anyone seen Higgs' Boson recently

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The forum discussion centers on the elusive Higgs boson, with participants humorously lamenting its apparent disappearance while referencing CERN's recent hints of its existence. The Higgs boson, theorized by Peter Higgs, is crucial for understanding mass in particle physics and is expected to be detected through its decay patterns in high-energy collisions. The conversation highlights the challenges faced by physicists in capturing evidence of the Higgs boson, which exists for only a yoctosecond before decaying into other particles. The discussion also touches on the Standard Model of particle physics and the ongoing search for definitive proof of the Higgs boson's existence.

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  • Understanding of particle physics and the Standard Model
  • Familiarity with high-energy collisions and decay patterns
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  • #31
turbo said:
Peter Higgs theorized about the existence of a mass-granting boson quite a while back. Many millions of dollars have been spent trying to find this wonderful particle. While current experiments have managed to rule out larger and larger spreads of energies where the Higgs can't be, there is a curious lack of professional curiosity IMO.

What if Higgs was off base, and the Standard Model of particle physics needs to be modified so that particles can be shown to have mass without the mediation of intermediate particles?

Don't know why you would think this. Alternative mechanisms were proposed contemporaneously with Higgs, and at intervals ever since. It is a whole cottage industry in HEP theory. Lack of media attention does not imply lack of existence. The popularity of the Higgs is simply that most physicists think it works best (either in its simplest form, or in a supersymmetric extension) Note a few additional points left out of too many media stories:

1) The region not excluded was, from fairly early on, the region believed most likely to have the Higgs. Thus the exclusions are interesting but uneventful: it's not where we thought it probably wasn't.

2) If the last region is excluded, physicists are more than ready to pull out one of the alternatives or invent new ones.
 
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  • #32
Is this the guy we're looking for?

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp67negAWA1qzpo93o1_500.jpg
 
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  • #33
No, Boson's have a GREEN nose...
 
  • #34
Higgs and his boson buddies went to the bar.
Bartender says "This is a clean place. You guys better not make a mass around here."
( uncontrolled laughter )
Uranium didn't want trouble so he split.
Neutrino just whisked back on out, barely noticed.
Electron got excited and emmitted something to Photon.
Photon shifted red-faced and waved goodby.
In the commotion, Higgs was no where to be found.
 
  • #35
Ok, enough fun and frivolity, http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2011/dec/18/untitled-p_godparticle121811/
The Higgs is the holdout. One major problem with finding the Higgs is it doesn’t stick around very long. It’s too ephemeral to be captured in a bottle. It theoretically winks into existence in high-energy collisions for a mere yoctosecond, which is one-septillionth of a second.

It then decays into less-exotic particles that careen in all directions in an uncontrolled spew. The challenge for scientists is to analyze this decay pattern and look for authentic Higgs debris buried amid the subatomic wreckage.

It’s like stalking a snow leopard by its footprints after a million other big cats have tramped across the same snow field.

After the announcement, physicists immediately did what physicists do: They argued about the data.

and...

In the past year, the LHC has produced some 300 trillion collisions. And still it’s not enough. The search requires powerful computers looking for a Higgs-suggestive bump, or an “excess of events,” in some region of the data.

Such a bump has now appeared at a specific place, showing something with a mass of around 125 billion electron volts, roughly 125 times the mass of a proton. If that’s the Higgs, it would support the Standard Model of particle physics and be in a range where further scrutiny might turn up more definitive proof.
A yoctosecond is 10 to the minus 24th of a second, which is is one septillionth (short scale) of a second. I thought CMS and ATLAS had sampling rates and frequencies that are much much longer than this, so how to capture such a rare and exceedingly fast event ? Since this is GD I only expect a layman's response to steer me in the right direction, unless of course some BSM professional is out there who cares to answer to a higher level of fidelity, so to speak.

Rhody...
 
  • #36
rhody said:
Ok, enough fun and frivolity, http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2011/dec/18/untitled-p_godparticle121811/

A yoctosecond is 10 to the minus 24th of a second, which is is one septillionth (short scale) of a second. I thought CMS and ATLAS had sampling rates and frequencies that are much much longer than this, so how to capture such a rare and exceedingly fast event ? Since this is GD I only expect a layman's response to steer me in the right direction, unless of course some BSM professional is out there who cares to answer to a higher level of fidelity, so to speak.

Rhody...

The answer is in what you quoted:

"It then decays into less-exotic particles that careen in all directions in an uncontrolled spew. The challenge for scientists is to analyze this decay pattern and look for authentic Higgs debris buried amid the subatomic wreckage."

Software filters the ocean of data for patterns of decay particles of the right type and total energy occurring closely together in time. You don't need to worry about that yoctosecond. If the pattern is relatively rare by chance with 1 nanosecond synchronization, and you can calculate what the random background rate of production is, you have what is called a detection channel.
 
  • #37
I have it here next to me.
 
  • #38
PAllen said:
You don't need to worry about that yoctosecond. If the pattern is relatively rare by chance with 1 nanosecond synchronization, and you can calculate what the random background rate of production is, you have what is called a detection channel.
PAllen,

A little more fill in the details here would be nice.

Thanks...

Rhody...
 
  • #39
rhody said:
PAllen,

A little more fill in the details here would be nice.

Thanks...

Rhody...

You said you didn't want too much detail. Anyway, you are trying to distinguish a possible Higgs decay from all previously known processes. So you look for known processes that could produce the same particles as a Higgs decay (among many others) with, with similar energies. Hopefully, you can filter out most of these by also looking for other things produced that are not produced by Higgs. With lots of work, you finally conclude that if the Higgs didn't exist, all known processes would produce a particular signature of particles and energy with a given time coincidence at some rate (e.g., one of very trillion collisions). An excess over the expected rate is then a sign of a possible Higgs (e.g. 3 out of two trillion collisions). The larger the excess, and the more expected signatures possessing a predicted excess, the higher the confidence you have detected a Higgs.
 
  • #40
Understand a cluster of particles of which you'd see a lot around anyway but you wouldn't see all turning up together at the very same time often unless they came from Higgs.

Could you tell us what exactly what stuff they are looking to see?
 
  • #41
epenguin said:
Understand a cluster of particles of which you'd see a lot around anyway but you wouldn't see all turning up together at the very same time often unless they came from Higgs.

Could you tell us what exactly what stuff they are looking to see?

I think the main (but not only) decay channels being sought are:

Higgs -> Z + anti Z -> 4 muons (2 must be anti)
Higgs -> Z + anti Z -> 4 electrons (2 must be anti)
Higgs -> 2 gamma photons
Higgs -> W + anti W -> e+e- + 2 neutrino
Higgs -> W + anti W -> muon + antimuion+ 2 neutrinos

In each case, both energy and temporal coincidence filters apply to the sought end products. Despite this, there are many processes other than the Higgs which will produce each result (the background that must be statistically exceeded).

W and Z are the two different types of vector bosons that mediate weak interactions.

If you still have more questions, please ask at the high energy physics forum. This is not not my primary knowledge area.

Here is a link for terms used to describe the search process:

http://press.web.cern.ch/press/background/B09-Important_Higgs_terms_en.html
 
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  • #42
PAllen said:
I think the main (but not only) decay channels being sought are:

Higgs -> Z + anti Z -> 4 muons (2 must be anti)
Higgs -> Z + anti Z -> 4 electrons (2 must be anti)
Higgs -> 2 gamma photons
Higgs -> W + anti W -> e+e- + 2 neutrino
Higgs -> W + anti W -> muon + antimuion+ 2 neutrinos

In each case, both energy and temporal coincidence filters apply to the sought end products. Despite this, there are many processes other than the Higgs which will produce each result (the background that must be statistically exceeded).

W and Z are the two different types of vector bosons that mediate weak interactions.

If you still have more questions, please ask at the high energy physics forum. This is not not my primary knowledge area.

Here is a link for terms used to describe the search process:

http://press.web.cern.ch/press/background/B09-Important_Higgs_terms_en.html
Thanks for your increasing level of detail response. I appreciate it.

Rhody... :wink:
 
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  • #43
PAllen said:
I think the main (but not only) decay channels being sought are:

Higgs -> Z + anti Z -> 4 muons (2 must be anti)
Higgs -> Z + anti Z -> 4 electrons (2 must be anti)
Higgs -> 2 gamma photons
Higgs -> W + anti W -> e+e- + 2 neutrino
Higgs -> W + anti W -> muon + antimuion+ 2 neutrinos

Bought two set of everything on the list, off e-bay, hope they arrive before Xmas.:biggrin::rolleyes:
 
  • #44
My dog steals stuff and hides it. He might have the Higgs stashed around here, but he is pretty cagey about it. I have recovered some socks, but no Higgs, so far.
 
  • #45
And 20 minutes later my search for some real discussion turned up nil. Darn, no higgs either. I'm going to go post on facebook and look some more.
 

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