Hidden-Variables: They may as well be deterministic

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter stevendaryl
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between local hidden variables and determinism, particularly in the context of the twin-pair EPR experiment. Participants explore the implications of deterministic versus nondeterministic models in explaining quantum phenomena, examining both theoretical and philosophical aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that deterministic models are often assumed in hidden-variables explanations of the EPR experiment due to perfect correlations observed in measurements.
  • Others argue that while deterministic models can explain certain empirical results, nondeterministic theories may also be plausible and elegant.
  • A participant notes that for any probabilistic theory, there exist corresponding deterministic theories, suggesting that one does not lose generality by considering deterministic models.
  • There is a discussion about the historical context of the EPR characterization of quantum mechanics, linking it to aesthetic and philosophical preferences for determinism.
  • One participant questions whether certain phenomena can be mimicked by simple computational models, introducing a consideration of randomness in the context of hidden variables.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on the definition of determinism, suggesting that it implies a single possible future state compatible with the present state.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of determinism in the context of hidden variables, with some emphasizing the theoretical possibility of deterministic models while others highlight the limitations and philosophical implications of such assumptions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader implications of these models in understanding quantum mechanics.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that the discussion involves complex theoretical considerations and that the definitions of determinism may vary among individuals. There is also an indication that the implications of hidden-variable theories are not straightforward and may depend on specific interpretations of quantum mechanics.

stevendaryl
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Insights Author
Messages
8,943
Reaction score
2,955
This is just a little note describing something that may be common knowledge, but I was confused about, myself, which is the relationship between local hidden variables and determinism.

For a hidden-variables explanation of the twin-pair EPR experiment, people often look to deterministic models. They assume that there is some hidden variable \lambda and the results of a spin measurement along axis \vec{a} for one of the particles is a function F(\vec{a}, \lambda). At first, that doesn't seem very general, and it's not--we can certainly imagine a stochastic process where the outcome of the measurement is not uniquely determined by the hidden variables plus the state of the detector, but is partly random. Why should people assume that the outcome is deterministic?

The first reason, which is the one I've given in the past, is because of perfect correlations. In the twin pair EPR experiment, if the two detectors measure spins along the same axis, they always get the same result (in the spin-1 case) or always get the opposite result (in the spin-1/2 case). These perfect correlations are not possible if there is local nondeterminism involved.

But actually, there's a much more general reason, that's independent of the specific predictions of quantum mechanics: For any probabilistic theory, there are corresponding deterministic theories in which all probabilities are due to unknown hidden variables in the initial state. That doesn't mean that there is no point in making nondeterministic theories, because the nondeterministic theory might be much more elegant and plausible than the corresponding deterministic theory. But purely as a logical matter, if you're trying to see whether it is possible to have a hidden-variables theory that explains a certain empirical result, you don't lose any generality by just considering deterministic models. If a nondeterministic local theory is possible, then so is a deterministic local theory.

This isn't particularly profound or difficult, but many people might not know it.

Here's how it works: Suppose you have a nondeterministic theory, in which the outcome of a measurement depends in a probabilistic way on the settings of your measuring device:

P(i | j) is the probability of getting result R_i when the device has setting S_j.

For simplicity, let's assume that the results can take on values R_0, R_1, .... Let me define a cumulative probability function

P_C(i | j) = P(0 | j) + P(1 | j) + \ldots + P(i | j)

This is the probability that the result will be in the range between R_0 and R_i

Now, let's introduce a function F(j,\lambda) defined as follows:

F(j,\lambda) = R_0 if 0 \leq \lambda < P_C(0,j)
= R_1 if P_C(0,j) \leq \lambda < P_C(1,j)
= R_2 if P_C(1,j) \leq \lambda < P_C(2,j)
etc.

This model puts all the nondeterminism into the variable \lambda, which is assumed to be a real number between 0 and 1 with a flat probability distribution.

As I said, I'm not claiming that this is a plausible model, only that it is mathematically consistent with the probability distribution P(i | j)

So if you are only interested in the question of whether it is possible (as opposed to plausible) to explain experimental results using a local, realistic hidden-variables model, you may as well assume that it is deterministic.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
stevendaryl said:
So if you are only interested in the question of whether it is possible (as opposed to plausible) to explain experimental results using a local, realistic hidden-variables model, you may as well assume that it is deterministic.

Indeed we can.

To a modern thinker who knows that we cannot have local realistic hidden variables, this isn't as interesting as it appears at first glance. The statement "If we had local hidden variables they could be deterministic" is of the same form as "If wishes were horses we'd all be riding"; it's true but doesn't tell us much about our world in which we do not have local hidden variables.

On the other hand, it's historically important and interesting. The EPR characterization of QM as "incomplete" was motivated as much by an aesthetic and philosophical preference for determinism as for locality.
 
are there things that we cannot mimmic with a simple computer?
we can write programs where \lambda is the random function.
 
stevendaryl said:
This is just a little note describing something that may be common knowledge, but I was confused about, myself, which is the relationship between local hidden variables and determinism.

For a hidden-variables explanation of the twin-pair EPR experiment, people often look to deterministic models. They assume that there is some hidden variable \lambda and the results of a spin measurement along axis \vec{a} for one of the particles is a function F(\vec{a}, \lambda). At first, that doesn't seem very general, and it's not--we can certainly imagine a stochastic process where the outcome of the measurement is not uniquely determined by the hidden variables plus the state of the detector, but is partly random. Why should people assume that the outcome is deterministic?

The first reason, which is the one I've given in the past, is because of perfect correlations. In the twin pair EPR experiment, if the two detectors measure spins along the same axis, they always get the same result (in the spin-1 case) or always get the opposite result (in the spin-1/2 case). These perfect correlations are not possible if there is local nondeterminism involved.

But actually, there's a much more general reason, that's independent of the specific predictions of quantum mechanics: For any probabilistic theory, there are corresponding deterministic theories in which all probabilities are due to unknown hidden variables in the initial state. That doesn't mean that there is no point in making nondeterministic theories, because the nondeterministic theory might be much more elegant and plausible than the corresponding deterministic theory. But purely as a logical matter, if you're trying to see whether it is possible to have a hidden-variables theory that explains a certain empirical result, you don't lose any generality by just considering deterministic models. If a nondeterministic local theory is possible, then so is a deterministic local theory.

This isn't particularly profound or difficult, but many people might not know it.

Here's how it works: Suppose you have a nondeterministic theory, in which the outcome of a measurement depends in a probabilistic way on the settings of your measuring device:

P(i | j) is the probability of getting result R_i when the device has setting S_j.

For simplicity, let's assume that the results can take on values R_0, R_1, .... Let me define a cumulative probability function

P_C(i | j) = P(0 | j) + P(1 | j) + \ldots + P(i | j)

This is the probability that the result will be in the range between R_0 and R_i

Now, let's introduce a function F(j,\lambda) defined as follows:

F(j,\lambda) = R_0 if 0 \leq \lambda < P_C(0,j)
= R_1 if P_C(0,j) \leq \lambda < P_C(1,j)
= R_2 if P_C(1,j) \leq \lambda < P_C(2,j)
etc.

This model puts all the nondeterminism into the variable \lambda, which is assumed to be a real number between 0 and 1 with a flat probability distribution.

As I said, I'm not claiming that this is a plausible model, only that it is mathematically consistent with the probability distribution P(i | j)

So if you are only interested in the question of whether it is possible (as opposed to plausible) to explain experimental results using a local, realistic hidden-variables model, you may as well assume that it is deterministic.

what is determinism to you ? which is your definition.
 
audioloop said:
what is determinism to you ? which is your definition.

A theory is deterministic if there is only possible future state compatible with the present state.
 
stevendaryl said:
A theory is deterministic if there is only possible future state compatible with the present state.
stevendaryl said:
A theory is deterministic if there is an only possible future state compatible with the present state.

an event needs an antecedent event ?
.
 
Last edited:
audioloop said:
an event needs an antecedent event ?
.

I'm not sure what you mean, but a deterministic theory has a notion of "state" of the universe, and this state changes with time in a predictable way:

S(t+\delta t) = F(S(t), \delta t)
 
stevendaryl said:
I'm not sure what you mean,

but a deterministic theory has a notion of "state" of the universe, and this "state" changes with time in a predictable way: ...to another "state"

S(t+\delta t) = F(S(t), \delta t)

same thing.

a state needs a previous state.

that's what you mean?



------
PD: bold and italic mine.
 
audioloop said:
same thing.

a state needs a previous state.

that's what you mean?



------
PD: bold and italic mine.

No, usually a deterministic state machine has an initial state, which can be any of a set of possibilities. So the only nondeterminism is in initial conditions.
 
  • #10
stevendaryl said:
No, usually a deterministic state machine has an initial state, which can be any of a set of possibilities. So the only nondeterminism is in initial conditions.

machine ?
 
  • #11
audioloop said:
machine ?

I was using terminology from computer science. I don't know what the more general terminology is.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 80 ·
3
Replies
80
Views
8K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
4K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 72 ·
3
Replies
72
Views
8K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K