News Horrific Attack in Iraq - Al Qaeda Denies Involvement

[Pengwuino]

Well thank you for proving my point Smokingman. I've never seen an argument where people attacked themselves.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Oddly enough, I do wonder what you believe actually happened in Boston that day. What has your government told you? Were we throwing babies overboard as well? Did we burn people alive? And exactly what does it matter what the Iranians think? For a nation that retaliated with their own chemical weapons and kidnapped US citizens, i don't think their opinion should matter much.

Interesting ... most of my education came from textbooks printed in the USA and then continued at Trinity College for my Masters.

What are you assuming is "your government"?

Your knowledge of Iran is also staggeringly lacking considering the USA and Britain overthrew the Democratically elected government of Iran for nationalizing the oil industry in the 1950's. By all means, if you are going to quote history at me go back to the start of events and don't join in part way through.

Also, the UN TOLD US that Saddam had WMD's. We also did not fear him using WMD's against us as it would have been painfully obvious that our retaliation would have been with nuclear weapons. The fear was that Saddam would engage another nation in a rather unstable region. I mean, he does kind of have a history of invading other nations.

Well, if that were true, Hans Blix performing a search for weapons that we now know did not exist would have been redundant, wouldn't it?

I also remember seeing Colin Powell sitting in the Chamber of the UN waving a 5 gram vial in the air trying to impress upon the folks assembled that this was the stuff (Anthrax) that Saddam was making.

Meanwhile, the French were jumping up and down saying, "Non. Non! Our intel is faulty. Do not use it. We have not released it to the intelligence community."

When it all comes down to it, you went to war with a 'Coalition of the Willing' that included about 40 countries which included the likes of Sierra Leone and the Philippines ... hardly world powers ... and far short of a majority of the 191 countries that make up the countries that represent the UN.

Make no mistake, what you did falls entirely on your head and did not reflect the feeling of the UN as an organization.

Laugh all you want at the Iraqi Information Minister but one thing is for sure ... he did say that after the war was over, you WOULD find out they were telling the truth about the WMD.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Well thank you for proving my point Smokingman. I've never seen an argument where people attacked themselves.

Perception young one ... perception.

Terrorists dressed as natives boarded a boat in Boston harbour and attacked a civilian target under government protection with the intention of sending a message (intimidation and propaganda).

Remember, the tea itself was not owned by the King. The boat was not owned by the King. The TAXES were what was in question. The tea and the boat were civillian owned and crewed.

It was an act committed by a clandestined group for the criminal act of non-payment of tax and to send a political message (to the King as an audience) while attacking a symbolic CIVILLIAN target.

 

[Hurkyl]

What you see is the result of stripping away the emotion and applying the same thought to the actions on both sides and equating the two together.

The problem is you stripped too much -- you stripped away anything resembling a condemnation of this particular act, and that is the problem.

Despite your implication, I do apply the same "thought" to both sides. Since I've been convinced police are legitimate targets, I do not condemn insurgents for the civilian casualties incurred during an attack on a police station, just as I do not condemn the coalition for civilian casualties incurred in strikes against the insurgents.

When I raised the possibility that insurgents attack in public areas, thus putting civilians in unnecessary harm, I also wondered if the same could apply to coalition forces.

In fact, I generally test any criticism I levy against the insurgency to see how I would apply my principles in the reverse direction, and the reverse is true for defense of the coalition.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The problem is you stripped too much -- you stripped away anything resembling a condemnation of this particular act, and that is the problem.

Despite your implication, I do apply the same "thought" to both sides. Since I've been convinced police are legitimate targets, I do not condemn insurgents for the civilian casualties incurred during an attack on a police station, just as I do not condemn the coalition for civilian casualties incurred in strikes against the insurgents.

When I raised the possibility that insurgents attack in public areas, thus putting civilians in unnecessary harm, I also wondered if the same could apply to coalition forces.

In fact, I generally test any criticism I levy against the insurgency to see how I would apply my principles in the reverse direction, and the reverse is true for defense of the coalition.

Then we are in agreement.

I still harken back to the convoy of trucks carrying sheep to Syria that was attacked by rockets launched from planes because they suspected Saddam might have been aboard.

What you feel for those kids, I feel for the truck drivers some of whom would have had family members with them. (If you know anything about the culture)

 

[russ_watters]

You'd be wrong then.

It was a terrible act.

Happy?

No. That isn't good enough. What we want is an unequivocal statement that you accept that the act referenced in the opening post was terrorism, murder, and was wrong regardless of any wrong ever done to those who perpetrated it. I want you to acknowledge that killing civilians on purpose is murder and is not acceptable.

Just saying it was a terrible act still allows you to defend it - which you continue to do.

What you see is the result of stripping away the emotion and applying the same thought to the actions on both sides and equating the two together.

I think the actions of the terrorists is terrible and the acts of the Americans in the same light.

The second sentence contradicts the first: since the acts of terrorists and the things that the US has done are not the same, equating them just shines a bright light on your heavy bias. I really hope you see the irony of lecturing Americans for being narrow-minded about what goes on in other countries while simultaneously lecturing us on our own past. You're trying to have it both ways and it simply doesn't work that way: your perceptions of America are just as clouded as any American's is of foreign countries.

I do remember the young boy who lost both his arms and his own family too who was featured on the news ... but I guess you wouldn't equate the two.

Again - why should we equate the two? Was the boy the target of the attack?

What I really want to know is why is terrorism acceptable to you? Is it simply a matter of retribution? Do you think its "fair" to kill innocent civilians on purpose?

Here's a scenario for you: Let's say some citizens of country "S" take it upon themselves to kill 3,000 civilians from contry "A" for some wrong done by country "A". It seems that you think that makes it accepable for individuals in country "A" to fly over to country "S" and start indiscriminantly killing civilians.

 

[kyleb]

Since you are resulting to insults rather then factual arguments, it makes me wonder if you do even know what "terrorism" means. Terrorism is when you engage a civilian population as opposed to a military population.

Some more commonly accepted definitions can be found here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism

In those respects, the Boston Tea Party was most certianly an act of terroism.

 

[Townsend]

Some more commonly accepted definitions can be found here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism

In those respects, the Boston Tea Party was most certianly an act of terroism.

I think you're right. But I don't think that it is at all the same as modern day terrorism.

I think we need a different word to more precisely describe the horrific acts commits by terrorist today. Using a word to describe their acts that can also be used to describe things like the Boston Tea Party shows me the the word terrorist is to broad.

Any ideas for a good word?

Regards,

 

[The Smoking Man]

No. That isn't good enough. What we want is an unequivocal statement that you accept that the act referenced in the opening post was terrorism, murder, and was wrong regardless of any wrong ever done to those who perpetrated it. I want you to acknowledge that killing civilians on purpose is murder and is not acceptable.

Is that the 'royal' WE Russ?

Since when am I answerable to you?

What will you do, cancel my ID?

Just saying it was a terrible act still allows you to defend it - which you continue to do. The second sentence contradicts the first: since the acts of terrorists and the things that the US has done are not the same, equating them just shines a bright light on your heavy bias.

Because Russ, as per the definition I gave you of terrorism, the attack was random. The propaganda value was exposed when you then took this boy and paraded him in front of the media and showed how 'benevolent you were' while dragging him around the world getting him fitted for the series of appliances he will wear all his life.

The fact that you can not see what America has done was wrong indicates that it is YOU who has a heavy bias, not me.

I equate the two heinous forces in this 'war' with each other and place killing of innocents at the same level.

You, on the other hand, are fully prepared to forgive anything I post to the contrary as a "necessity" of achieving your ends in some vague hope of excusing your means.

You assume, because I equate the two, the 'terrorists' and the 'American forces' that I am raising the level of my view of the terrorists and forgiving them as YOU forgive your forces.

In reality, I am placing YOUR actions at the level of the terrorists and viewing both with equal distain.

Like most of the rest of the world, I place GW Bush in the exact same bag of human garbage as OBL.

You seem to want to take one kind of Child/shepherd/innocents murderer and elevate him to the level of Saint in a seeming act of goodness that violated World Law, American Law and the 'Higher' Laws of humanity itself.

So, who's biased here, Russ, me or you?

I really hope you see the irony of lecturing Americans for being narrow-minded about what goes on in other countries while simultaneously lecturing us on our own past. You're trying to have it both ways and it simply doesn't work that way: your perceptions of America are just as clouded as any American's is of foreign countries. Again - why should we equate the two? Was the boy the target of the attack?

Lecturing, Russ?

What educational institutions did you say yo were a part of?

When has expressing an opinion in an open forum thus inviting dialogue ever been considered 'lecturing'?

By this childish observation, are you trying to 'shame' or 'encourage' me into silence so you can do that yourself?

You see, it would appear to me that YOU can't remove the emotion from a situation and see it for what it is.

You can't see ANY force that attacks in a similar manner 'right or wrong' as being 'terrorism' AND 'freedom fighting' at the same time because, in the end, it is the 'Victor who writes the history' and thus bestows the title that sticks.

What I really want to know is why is terrorism acceptable to you? Is it simply a matter of retribution? Do you think its "fair" to kill innocent civilians on purpose?

Come on Russ ... That is a 'have you stopped beating your wife' scenario and justifies about as much in the way of response as the original.

Do you believe 'colateral damage' is 'fair'?

Here's a scenario for you: Let's say some citizens of country "S" take it upon themselves to kill 3,000 civilians from contry "A" for some wrong done by country "A". It seems that you think that makes it accepable for individuals in country "A" to fly over to country "S" and start indiscriminantly killing civilians.

Sorry Russ ... Did you mean to describe 9/11 and the resultant action of the USA.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I think you're right. But I don't think that it is at all the same as modern day terrorism.

I think we need a different word to more precisely describe the horrific acts commits by terrorist today. Using a word to describe their acts that can also be used to describe things like the Boston Tea Party shows me the the word terrorist is to broad.

Any ideas for a good word?

Regards,

So, why not just take all the definitions you have by placing the words. "except if performed by Americans" since it seems you are looking for a definition that 'forgives you your transgressions'?

 

[Hurkyl]

I do remember the young boy who lost both his arms and his own family too who was featured on the news ... but I guess you wouldn't equate the two.

I don't see how I could, since I don't know anything about it.

But let's say you told me that the boy and his family were specifically target so the coalition forces could parade him around and say how benevolent they are, I would consider it worse than the act in the original post.

However, if it is false that civilians were the target of the military action, then I consider the act neutral¹, and the caring for the child to be positive. So, on the whole, the event shines a positive light on coalition forces.


You seem to suggest that you do equate the two. On what grounds do you think they're so closely analogous?



1: Of course, learning more details about the situation could tip the balance either way.

 

[Art]

It seems to have been forgotten that the intended target of the suicide bomber was american armour occupied by US forces surrounded by children. In the attack by the US helicoptors I referenced earlier the intended target was unoccupied armour surrounded by children. Would one of the neocons here please explain how they can justify the US attack whilst condemning the Iraqi suicide attack. And in case somebody is of a mind to suggest I am not denouncing the suicide attack I will add for the record I find both actions utterly despicable with the US attack if anything slightly more so for two reasons.
First it was cowardly; the murderers who fired the missiles and cannon fire were never in any danger themselves while they committed their carnage whereas at least the suicide bomber sacrificed his own life and secondly because the US wasted innocent civilians for the sake of completing the destruction of an already wrecked vehicle whereas the suicide bomber was attacking an enemy occupied armoured vehicle.

 

[Hurkyl]

It seems to have been forgotten that the intended target of the suicide bomber was american armour occupied by US forces surrounded by children.

The reports I've read indicate that the bomber specifically waited until the children surrounded the vehicle.

I find both actions utterly despicable with the US attack if anything slightly more so for two reasons.
First it was cowardly; the murderers who fired the missiles and cannon fire were never in any danger themselves while they committed their carnage whereas at least the suicide bomber sacrificed his own life

You seem to suggest that you believe if two atrocities were committed under identical circumstances, except that one person risked his life to do it, and the other did not, that the person who risked his life is less condemnable than the person who did not.

I just don't see the relevance.

 

[Art]

The reports I've read indicate that the bomber specifically waited until the children surrounded the vehicle.

Do you have a credible source for that please? The report I heard said the bomber was driving at speed and approached suddenly from around a corner which is why the US troops did not have time to react. So will you now answer the question I asked?

 

[GENIERE]

...Any ideas for a good word?...

It is not necessary. The dictionary meaning(s) are necessarily broad to encompass all variations in usage. There is, believe it or not, an English word that is its own antonym.

The mental image evoked by a given word may vary greatly over a brief time period. The word “terrorist” in the UK of 10-15 years ago would have likely spawned an image of a member of the IRA planting a bomb in a car outside a crowded market.

Today’s use of the word “terrorist” universally evokes an image of a Muslim with a bomb strapped to his torso and is considered a despicable individual. In the Muslim world, no real sense of horror is felt but rather an image of a martyr doing the work of Allah. To get a feel for how the Muslim thinks, do search for, (I’m not kidding!) “Ask the Imam” or “Muslim advice” or similar. My favorite hit is:

Is it OK to have SEX with my SLAVES?




The liberal press knows well how to structure a sentence to evoke the desired mental image from their readers and now refer to the terrorist as an insurgent to avoid the automatic “Muslim-terrorist” connotation. The liberal press/individual does not favor one religion over another, deeming all religions to be an obstacle in the path of global socialism / Marxism. Right now Christianity is perceived to be the more dangerous of the two. The complete destruction of all traditional values is the goal of the liberal as the smallest deviation from socialist dogma is destructive to the system.

Continue to use “terrorist”, everyone in the western world knows to what it refers despite the efforts of the liberal (aka Marxist) to replace the image of the psychotic Muslim bomber with that of a coalition soldier doing his duty.


...

 

[mathwonk]

is anyone interested in a moment of silence for all innocent victims harmed in this conflict, of all nationalities?

 

[Art]

You seem to suggest that you believe if two atrocities were committed under identical circumstances, except that one person risked his life to do it, and the other did not, that the person who risked his life is less condemnable than the person who did not.

I just don't see the relevance.

This reeks of obfuscation. Are you going to answer my question or not? Both you and Russ were very quick to demand simple straight answers from TSM and I am now requesting the same of you.

 

[Evo]

Do you have a credible source for that please? The report I heard said the bomber was driving at speed and approached suddenly from around a corner which is why the US troops did not have time to react. So will you now answer the question I asked?

It would make sense that he knew the vehicle along with the soldiers would be there handing out treats. The fact that when he was ready to go that he came barreling at them so they had no time to stop him makes sense. You aren't suggesting that the bomber came barreling around the corner not knowing if there was a target?

 

[The Smoking Man]

1: Of course, learning more details about the situation could tip the balance either way.

I doubt it but here's the info:

http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/ali.html

 

[Townsend]

So, why not just take all the definitions you have by placing the words. "except if performed by Americans" since it seems you are looking for a definition that 'forgives you your transgressions'?

If I saw a particular car driving down the road I could call it a car and be correct. If on the other hand I knew the make model and year of the car I could describe it more exactly.

My point is that the actions that were preformed by 200 + years ago can be called terrorist actions. Of course using that definition we can most any country or group of people throughout history terrorist. But they are not all the same and I think it is obvious that some are much worse than others.

As such a better, more precise word would do well to make the important distinction between the actions.

Regards

 

[Evo]

I doubt it but here's the info:

http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/ali.html

Sites like this won't cut it. Please post a news source.

 

[Hurkyl]

I doubt it but here's the info:

Knowing the attack happened 30 miles outside of Baghdad has no affect on my assessment of it.

 

[Townsend]

Continue to use “terrorist”, everyone in the western world knows to what it refers despite the efforts of the liberal (aka Marxist) to replace the image of the psychotic Muslim bomber with that of a coalition soldier doing his duty.


...

I just read this...I see what your saying. Its kind of like the true liberals being force to concede to label of liberal to avoid appearing alined with the New Deal. So they adopted the term conservative instead. But yeah, I think everyone in the western world has a pretty good idea of the differences between the Boston Tea Party and 9/11 or London bombings.

Regards

 

[Art]

Sites like this won't cut it. Please post a news source.

There is a link to a BBC news report re the incident on the referenced site.

 

[The Smoking Man]

If I saw a particular car driving down the road I could call it a car and be correct. If on the other hand I knew the make model and year of the car I could describe it more exactly.

My point is that the actions that were preformed by 200 + years ago can be called terrorist actions. Of course using that definition we can most any country or group of people throughout history terrorist. But they are not all the same and I think it is obvious that some are much worse than others.

As such a better, more precise word would do well to make the important distinction between the actions.

Regards

LOL

Tome changes the definition of terrorism? ... Pull the other one.

Okay going with the car analogy ...

Let's say 'Moslem Car' and 'American Car' ... Well, istht better now? Are the cars now not cars? Do they perform different functions than the American car has cruise control and air conditioning?

 

[Evo]

There is a link to a BBC news report re the incident on the referenced site.

Thanks Art.

So, this is about a victim of war. Tragic and sad, as all are, but not a victim of terrorism, if that was the point being discussed?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Sites like this won't cut it. Please post a news source.

Why don't you click page down once and follow the 15 links to news sites then?

Or why don't you enter the words 'Ali Ismail Abbas' into Yahoo?

I also didn't post in reference to your request but the request of another who wanted to read about the details with relevence to the definition of Terrorism I placed earlier.

Does this not equate to the aspect of 'propaganda' in the definition supplied?

Why do you consistently perform Ad Hominem attacks on sites rather than addressing the evidence supplied there?

 

[Hurkyl]

Are you going to answer my question or not?

Impatient, aren't we? I hadn't even written anything between this and your previous post in which you wanted me to answer a question.

please explain how [one] can justify the US attack whilst condemning the Iraqi suicide attack.

My details of the US attack are fuzzy, so I apologize if I make any gross errors.


Basically, the fundamental principle I use to condemn the Iraqi suicide attack does not apply to the US attack. The objective was not "Let's blow up a humvee", it was "Let's blow up a humvee once it's surrounded by children"^*.

However, the objective of the US attack was "Let's destroy this vehicle", not "Let's destroy this vehicle once it's surrounded by people".


The two events are clearly unequal, whether or not the US attack is justifiable.


I cannot carry out the request that involved an actual justification of the US attack, but I have answered the main point of your question: explaining why there is no cognative dissonance.


To state all this another way that I think is relevant: just as the ends do not justify the means, the ends do not condemn the means.

This reeks of obfuscation.

Ok, let me try it more bluntly: killing yourself while performing a condemnable act does not make it any less condemnable.




*: Yes, I realize you contest this statement.

 

[Evo]

LOL

Tome changes the definition of terrorism? ... Pull the other one.

Okay going with the car analogy ...

Let's say 'Moslem Car' and 'American Car' ... Well, istht better now? Are the cars now not cars? Do they perform different functions than the American car has cruise control and air conditioning?

The Boston Tea party was a non-violent act of revolt, I don't recall any civilians being killed. I don't believe that anyone was killed.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Knowing the attack happened 30 miles outside of Baghdad has no affect on my assessment of it.

Wow, apparently you read 49 more words than Evo.

I'm impressed!