How Can Friction Be Incorporated into a Brachistochrone Model?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around incorporating friction into the mathematical modeling of the brachistochrone problem. Participants explore the theoretical framework, equations of motion, and numerical methods for solving the modified model, considering the complexity introduced by friction.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested, Homework-related, Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks guidance on modeling the brachistochrone with friction and questions the complexity of the required equations.
  • Another participant provides detailed equations of motion, including expressions for arc length, unit tangent vector, curvature, and forces involved, specifically addressing gravitational and frictional forces.
  • A participant expresses difficulty in understanding the solution and inquires about numerical methods for solving the equations.
  • Another participant shares their own struggles with finding a solution, indicating the challenges involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and capability regarding the mathematical modeling and solution of the problem, with no consensus on a straightforward method for incorporating friction or solving the equations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential limitations in the participants' mathematical backgrounds and the complexity of the equations involved, particularly in the context of numerical solutions.

hy23
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Hello all, I'm currently an undergrad in my first year doing an experiment with the brachistochrone and I wish to model it mathematically and introduce friction into my model. I understand that the original brachistochrone was solved using the action principle and seems to require Lagrangian mechanics. I just want to know what sort of equations I would have to consider in my model and whether or not this will be beyond my level.
 
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Let [itex]x = x(p), y = y(p)[/itex] be a parametric form of the line. Then, the arc length is:

[tex] ds = \sqrt{\dot{x}^{2} + \dot{y}^{2}} \, dp[/tex]

The unit tangent vector is:

[tex] \hat{T} = \langle \frac{d x}{d s}, \frac{d y}{d s}\rangle[/tex]

and the curvature [itex]\kappa[/itex] and the unit normal is given by:

[tex] \kappa \, \hat{N} = \langle \frac{d^{2} x}{d s^{2}}, \frac{d^{2} y}{d s^{2}}\rangle[/tex]

The equations of motion become ([itex]v = ds/dt[/itex]):

[tex] m \, (\mathbf{g}\cdot \hat{T}) - F_{\mathrm{fr}} = m \frac{d v}{d t}[/tex]

[tex] F_{N} + m (\mathbf{g} \cdot \hat{N}) = m \, \kappa \, v^{2}[/tex]

[tex] F_{\mathrm{fr}} = \mu \, |F_{N}|[/tex]
 
Thanks for your reply.

I understand the equations of motion but the solution seems to be beyond my level.
Is there a way to solve it numerically? Preferably some simple method.
 
I don't know. I tried it myself several times. :smile:
 

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